Visit our Popular Forums

**Jim Cate** · 01-01-2021, 17:57

dunno why he would sail all the way up to Esperance for a repair stop. Researche Bay is 15 miles closer to the Southern Ocean... doesn't sound like far, but it is an area with very flakey winds and a significant chance of being unable to get back into the race when he wanted to. Or having to beat back south in a gale to get out.

Jim

Yellowtulip · 02-01-2021, 05:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

dunno why he would sail all the way up to Esperance for a repair stop. Researche Bay is 15 miles closer to the Southern Ocean... doesn't sound like far, but it is an area with very flakey winds and a significant chance of being unable to get back into the race when he wanted to. Or having to beat back south in a gale to get out.

Jim

I think I got that slightly wrong. The Esperance bay he previously anchored in was in Western Australia and he had mentioned going there. Tasmania has been mentioned recently as a place to stop for repairs but I don’t know where specifically. The word this morning on the Vendee Live broadcast is that he’s having such severe problems that he may have to abandon the race.

MicHughV · 02-01-2021, 07:30

that's my take on the matter too.....mechanical/electric difficulties may spell the end of the race for Sebastian..though he is in a light air spot at the moment and may be able to affect repairs while the boat is reasonably docile...he seemed to be pretty upbeat on his last video...

Yellowtulip · 03-01-2021, 08:56

Maitre Coq is heading East while Apivia has passed the Horn close in and is passing inside Isla de las Estados, so different strategies here which probably won’t resolve until they get to the doldrums. The chasing pack is becoming a little fragmented too.

MicHughV · 03-01-2021, 13:23

Yep, the Atlantic can be a bit of a crap shoot.....be in the wrong place at the wrong time....or...be in the right place at the right time...and 600 miles can shrink to 60 miles...

looking at the weather map it seems like go fast now(stay west).....but expect to go slow later...or go slow now(head east) but expect to go fast later...

we are likely to see any number of routing options in the next dew days..

Yellowtulip · 04-01-2021, 10:19

How unlucky for Isabelle Joschke. She has lost both her wind information vanes (as has Pip Hare) and now her keel ram is kaput. She was a definite contender for a very high finish.

MicHughV · 04-01-2021, 16:56

I'm curious to know how well these Vendee boats can sail with the canting keel straight down.....
the hulls are pretty wide, and the keel is quite deep, so must develop quite a moment arm...additionally with the keel straight down, one would think it would provide better leeward resistance than when canted up....
the canting keel (when up) requires dagger boards or foils to provide leeward resistance...but now with the canting keel straight down, those would likely not be required. It seems six of one and half dozen of the other....
And now they are coming into the Atlantic, a little more benign than the Pacific......Isabelle is good sailor, I think she will contrive to make a plan.

skenn_ie · 04-01-2021, 17:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by MicHughV

I'm curious to know how well these Vendee boats can sail with the canting keel straight down.....
the hulls are pretty wide, and the keel is quite deep, so must develop quite a moment arm...additionally with the keel straight down, one would think it would provide better leeward resistance than when canted up....
the canting keel (when up) requires dagger boards or foils to provide leeward resistance...but now with the canting keel straight down, those would likely not be required. It seems six of one and half dozen of the other....
And now they are coming into the Atlantic, a little more benign than the Pacific......Isabelle is good sailor, I think she will contrive to make a plan.

A keel, pointing straight down, does nothing for stability. A keel sideways to windward, keeps the mast near vertical, and therefore presents maximum area to the wind. It also limits wind (effort) being lost over the head of the sail. I suspect that the chord of those keels is so small as to make little lateral resistance anyway.

MicHughV · 05-01-2021, 04:17

well, looking at the tracker, Isabelle is still trucking along at a good speed...

Yellowtulip · 05-01-2021, 05:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by MicHughV

well, looking at the tracker, Isabelle is still trucking along at a good speed...

Yes, she still has all her sails and mast, but not being able to can’t the keel will reduce her sail-carrying ability by some amount on some points of sail. Coupled with her problems with wind data she is handicapped, and will inevitably be a bit slower than she would otherwise have been.

MicHughV · 05-01-2021, 07:33

but not being able to can’t the keel will reduce her sail-carrying ability by some amount on some point of sail

I agree, " by some amount on some point of sail" the key issue is by how much and on what point of sail ?

There are several interesting discussions on Youtube and elsewhere as to the value of a canting keel and foils.....the foils, in particular require a certain speed to be be efficient, below which, they provide little use, and even provide unwanted drag.

It's a muddy topic of discussion, with proponents on both sides of the fence.

Reliability of canting keels is also to be taken into account. The Seawolf program had an interesting discussion on this. Ram failure or other keel problems have been noted on other boats as well.

When all is said and done, I think Isabelle will continue to do just fine. Looking at the tracker her boat speed is comparable or exceeds that of those around her.

Yellowtulip · 05-01-2021, 08:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by MicHughV

but not being able to can’t the keel will reduce her sail-carrying ability by some amount on some point of sail

I agree, " by some amount on some point of sail" the key issue is by how much and on what point of sail ?

There are several interesting discussions on Youtube and elsewhere as to the value of a canting keel and foils.....the foils, in particular require a certain speed to be be efficient, below which, they provide little use, and even provide unwanted drag.

It's a muddy topic of discussion, with proponents on both sides of the fence.

Reliability of canting keels is also to be taken into account. The Seawolf program had an interesting discussion on this. Ram failure or other keel problems have been noted on other boats as well.

When all is said and done, I think Isabelle will continue to do just fine. Looking at the tracker her boat speed is comparable or exceeds that of those around her.

I don’t have the information or knowledge to quantify the effect of canting keels as opposed to fixed keels, but as they are both expensive and very widespread amongst the top racing boats I’d suggest they give a worthwhile advantage if only a small one. Therefore there is a disadvantage to not having one.
Isabelle is doing 16.8 knots now, perhaps with the keel canted she might have been doing 17.5. We don’t know but she and her team certainly will and her disappointment showed in her video.

MicHughV · 05-01-2021, 10:42

Isabelle is going 15.7 knots as of this writing, the boats around her in her immediate vicinity...Boris is doing 11.9...Giancaro is doing 12. 2.....Maxime is doing 13.1 knots.....and my man, Jean is doing 13.1, I'd say she is doing fine...she is only 2 nm behind Boris...she'll be a top 10 finisher imo...

Yellowtulip · 05-01-2021, 10:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by MicHughV

Isabelle is going 15.7 knots as of this writing, the boats around her in her immediate vicinity...Boris is doing 11.9...Giancaro is doing 12. 2.....Maxime is doing 13.1 knots.....and my man, Jean is doing 13.1, I'd say she is doing fine...she is only 2 nm behind Boris...she'll be a top 10 finisher imo...

Well, I agree she’ll be a top 10 finisher (or at least she has a good chance of that) but I believe she had a good chance of being a top 5 finisher! But we will probably never know.