What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

[Mike OReilly]

Again, I don't understand why this is even a question. No one doubts that different motor vehicles are designed and built to do different things. A race car is not the same as an off-road vehicle. An SUV is not the same as a subcompact. A pickup truck is not the same as a sedan.

That doesn't mean a dually can't deliver kids to the urban highschool, or a subcompact can't carry workers to the farm, but they aren't designed or built to do these kinds of tasks.

Same with boats. There are different needs, different approaches, different sailing and cruising grounds. Just like vehicles, boats are made to do everything optimally.

[Superjunkman]

Originally Posted by Don C L

I didn't mean to say boats don't matter. I am asking what everyone would agree are criteria, the must-haves, for a bluewater boat?

And regardless of any definition, there are people sailing around successfully and safely, presumably, in boats that don't meet the criteria. I suppose they are either foolish, highly skilled or incredibly lucky.

They’re some combination of the 3. Many also heavily modify their costal cruiser. Do you recall Dave Marin in the early 90’s. He glasses in watertight bulkheads and lots of other things to a 24’ coastal cruising type boat. You can certainly make any boat more seaworthy. There are some things you can’t change. You can’t make one more burdensome.

While all won’t agree I think here’s a definition that most would agree with. Blue water= (not in any order) watertight, directionally stable/tracks, well balanced,/can be easily made to self steer, really tough rig that’s likely to stay up come what May, can carry lots tools, food, water, supplies per crew member and still sail well, relatively easy to handle sail singlehanded (even if you have others on the boat), and simple to repair/maintain in remote locations unsupported. Something that can take a hit or a soft grounding without damage to keel is also a huge plus.

While there are other types of Water boats">blue water boats like race boats, micro cruisers, etc I think the above definition of a blue Water cruising boat is a decent one.

[Superjunkman]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Again, I don't understand why this is even a question. No one doubts that different motor vehicles are designed and built to do different things. A race car is not the same as an off-road vehicle. An SUV is not the same as a subcompact. A pickup truck is not the same as a sedan.

That doesn't mean a dually can't deliver kids to the urban highschool, or a subcompact can't carry workers to the farm, but they aren't designed or built to do these kinds of tasks.

Same with boats. There are different needs, different approaches, different sailing and cruising grounds. Just like vehicles, boats are made to do everything optimally.

Agreed, look at a coast guard 47’ motor lifeboat vs say a ski boat. There’s nobody contending that you’d want to cross the pacific in a Ski Nautique “If you’re Horatio Hornblower”.

[Wandering1]

I guess it means different things to different people.
For me it means having enough fuel for 1000nm,
Not ever needing to carry fuel cans or water cans on deck.
Having a secure cockpit that provides weather protection.
Having a water tight crash bulkhead.
Having an encapsulated lead keel that will absorb impact if you hit something hard.
Having a rudder mounted on a full skeg for added protection.
Not having large windows that are vulnerable to green water impact
Having a galley that isn't part of the saloon. The galley should be capable of being used at sea to make a meal.
Having seaberths in the middle of the boat as low as possible, close to the keel, where motion is least.
Oversized deck gear that can take a storm.
Heavy duty rigging

[MicHughV]

Well, Superjunkman, you've made it clear to all, that your opinion on the matter is the only that counts. forgetting that the accumulated experience of countless posters on this forum on this forum likely exceeds 100's of years.

[Superjunkman]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

Well, Superjunkman, you've made it clear to all, that your opinion on the matter is the only that counts. forgetting that the accumulated experience of countless posters on this forum on this forum likely exceeds 100's of years.

So the experience of all the people that disagree reaches 100’s of years? So does the accumulated but paltry sailing experience of all the puddle pirates that never leave the dock. There’s nothing controversial about anything I’ve said. Go cruise through anchorage at St. Helena or some other far flung place. The boats all look pretty similar to what I described.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Superjunkman

With a little luck a skilled/determined sailor can get across in a less than optimal vessel. That doesn’t make it a blue water boat. I think that a well thought out, well built, and well fit out blue water boat makes it much easier for the less skilled sailor. To safely get across

What makes a good blue water vessel stands alone. Who embarks/disembarks has no bearing on what you’ve got .

If you look back a few posts you'll see what I stated re; what defines a 'modern' Bluewater boat..
My reference to RM and Cooking Fat was to point out that there are other types that are very capable of safely venturing into 'Blue Water'.
Wharram designs are based on the Polynesian vessels which colonised the Pacific from 300BC and onwards.. just because a relatively modern design comes from the West does not make it the Gold Standard everything should be judged by.
Life is to short to be taken so seriously..

[Superjunkman]

Well
Everybody has different standards. We can all
Acknowledge that. Mine are based on an education at a maritime school, 15 years at sea as a professional mariner, 40+ years of sailing, and my subsequent life as a professional in the field of composites and boat building. So forgive me for not lowering mine or being interested in lay opinions.

PS. I love Wharrams.. they’re built tough. You see them all over

[MicHughV]

Can you jump tall buildings in a single bound as well ????

[S/V Illusion]

Originally Posted by Superjunkman

Well
Everybody has different standards. We can all
Acknowledge that. Mine are based on an education at a maritime school, 15 years at sea as a professional mariner, 40+ years of sailing, and my subsequent life as a professional in the field of composites and boat building. So forgive me for not lowering mine or being interested in lay opinions.

PS. I love Wharrams.. they’re built tough. You see them all over

Such feigned moral superiority and snap judgment aren’t things to eagerly display.

[danstanford]

How about the Ultime trimarans who have just circumnavigated again. Some of these boats and all of these skippers are as experienced as you can get at bluewater and I would guess that they are all re-defining what their boats should be durability wise again.

[Wandering1]

Originally Posted by danstanford

How about the Ultime trimarans who have just circumnavigated again. Some of these boats and all of these skippers are as experienced as you can get at bluewater and I would guess that they are all re-defining what their boats should be durability wise again.

Not really available to the masses or affordable though. Sort of misses the point of the thread I think.
It appears to me that bluewater means different things to different people. Those that have crossed oceans multiple times, done weeks at sea and several thousand miles at a time are likely to have a different and more informed view to those that have never done it.

[Mike OReilly]

Do you believe design intent and build technique and quality makes no difference? That's what it seems some of you are suggesting.

If you don't believe this, then is the opposite true, or is there a third option?

If you do believe design and build matter, then it follows that different designs, and different builds, must lead to different intended outcomes. Outcomes like a high lattitudes boat, or a dock queen, or a craft intended for the Great Lakes, or a coast sailboat, or ... a bluewater craft.

Everyone can quibble about what "bluewater" means. But that doesn't mean differences in intended use, and hence design & build factors, don't exist.

[danstanford]

Originally Posted by Wandering1

Not really available to the masses or affordable though. Sort of misses the point of the thread I think.
It appears to me that bluewater means different things to different people. Those that have crossed oceans multiple times, done weeks at sea and several thousand miles at a time are likely to have a different and more informed view to those that have never done it.

My point was that throughout this thread we have many opinions based on lots of facts and myths while this is proof that having been there and done that is not sufficient. Fitting in with the use case argument I suppose.

[Superjunkman]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

Can you jump tall buildings in a single bound as well ????

If they’re in a maritime environment I’d have a better chance of getting over them than you I’ll wager.