What is “too old”

[Jolly Roger]

Kefaa seems to be able to analyze his own personal traits pretty well, so why can’t he analyze his own questions? The answers to all of them are the same: it finally comes down to the individual. Some folks like sailing boats and some enjoy more just messing about on them. There is nothing wrong with either. An older boat which has been looked after could well be in much better condition than a newer one. It all depends on individual taste and what your priorities and skills are.
As to why you see such appalling shots of untidy cabins is nothing more than a reflection of the owner’s attitude. So when you see such pictures, you should always assume the rest of the boat is much the same?

[MoonlightShadow]

I'm a bit like the OP. I can do some handy things, but am mostly about jury rigging something to "get me back" to wherever.

But then, I hit on a truly brilliant idea. I invited my son. He loves tinkering with things, fixing things, wireing, mechanics, etc. I have to put up with the noisy and partially inebriated state on a Saturday night sometimes, but don't need to climb the mast etc. Works for me - he probably couldn't get a proper job anyway.

[Tempest245]

Have you considered Fractional Sailing as in Sailtime or similar outfits?

It acts like a timeshare.

[Hudson Force]

I'm the owner of a 1973 vessel that has been mine for twenty-five years. Each time I renew the propulsion engine, generator, sails, interior upolstery, galley stove, rigging, whatever...I'm always told, "You know you'll never get that value back when you sell it!" It's true and it's true for all the other owners that keep older boats in good condition. So who benefits from this axiom that the owner does not recoup the value of all that is put into the well-kept older vessel? I guess it's those that find them and make a classic purchase. Note: I'm not referring to all the old boats that have been left to corrode without care! 'take care and joy, Aythya crew ps. 'not selling!

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by CaptForce

Aythya crew ps. 'not selling!

Its the same as houses... you can never over capitalise if you are not selling

When we get our 'ultimate boat' in a few years we will be able to invest in it for the long term.

When in Sydney a few months ago we saw a friend on his 1973 Huon pine yacht that is exactly the same as when I saw it new... only he has continued to tinker and make a few little additions here and there.... now well into his 80's I don't think he's selling either!

What a wonderful life that boat has given him and all those whove sailed on her. Plus she is giving him a wonderful retirement... he is looking much younger than many who have given sailing away.


Mark

[LtBrett]

I think it might help you to define old in terms of the life cycles of the systems onboard. Old systems=questionable (not necessarily bad)=cheap. I bought an old boat, assumed I'd be doing lots of replacements, and reserved the budget. I've gone through the boat and replaced nearly everything that commonly fails. I now have a hull that has stood the test of time (read no problems lurking) and new wear items customized to my taste. It is worth mentioning that with rare exception, the components I replaced were still serviceable. A good surveyor should be able to give you an idea of the life cycle stage of your components. It has relatively little to do with age.

Brett

[dcstrng]

Originally Posted by Kefaa

I am one of those people who likes to sail...

Active sailing (which seems to imply an active eye on maintenance items) seems to preserve a boat, so regardless of age, I’d look for a boat that was used actively in the recent past… someone earlier said 5-7 years and electrical/mechanical gadgetry begins to show its age – TRUE. Further, modern techno-gizmos will be outdated in a matter of nanoseconds, so you take’s yer pick… Older boats may have simpler systems, so less areas for hidden items prone to failure; however, the condition of the vessel rather than pedigree will often be more important when you get beyond 10-12 years… some old, low-cost boats will still be in respectable condition if cared for by a modestly lively sailor while newer, expensive/trendy vessels can deteriorate dramatically if forced into a life of a marina queen…

[Solosailor]

I don't know what too old is, but here is something to ponder. Polyester resin has changed quite dramatically over the years. So too has the building knowledge with glass and resin. We now know the correct resin to glass ratio. This was not always the case. So just because some of the older boats had very heavy lay-ups does not necessarily mean they were built better or even stronger. On the other hand, the older boats were hand laid. So I guess the moral of the story is be very critical of what your looking at be it old or new.

From a personal standpoint. I'm looking for an older boat because they are less expensive and because I like the look of the classic plastic.

[Cheechako]

Regarding the new techniqwues in glassing. I've seen samples and considerably less resin seems to be infused in the glass, however it is very uniformly infused. Engineering and cost wise this is touted as better....... With the glass having that "dry" look.... I often wonder though if the future of these boats is the worst blister problems ever due to "wicking"... most a question than a comment, and only another 10 years amy tell......

[s/v Beth]

I am buying a 30 year old boat of my dreams- and I put aside at least 30% more for initial refurbishing. For me the jury is still out, but I think I am doing the right thing. I'll tell you though new boats just don't look as good. (and they don't handle as well either)

[Joli]

Originally Posted by Kefaa

So...
- How old can we safely go back into a boat type and still avoid the “what did you think when you bought an “X” year-old boat? I presume it will be different for fiberglass, steel, wood, concrete, etc. And I know there are always exceptions but is there a safe rule?

Lotta old boats out there people are still enjoying.

- Can I really apply what I find in a 2003 boat with a 1983 from the same manufacturer?

Sometimes, technology has improved but I'm not sure building practice is better then 30 years ago unless you spend big dollars.

- What can I really trust in a survey and at what point do I ask for one and at what point is it considered too old to be useful

If it is done by a good surveyor with experience it can generally be trusted but surveyors are not responsible if they miss something (ie best estimate)

Only ask for a survey if you intend to buy the boat, you will pay.

That is hard to tell, I guess when it is gone structurally that is the end unless you have REALLY deep pockets.

- At what point is a test sail a reasonable expectation? As a boat owner would you allow someone to take your boat without you? If you are on board, when do you turn over the helm?

When you are serious.
You're not taking my boat out alone, sorry, and no it is not for sale.
I would turn over the helm when we are clear of the obstructions and you can sail the boat without conern of running into stuff.

- Is it better to have a broker involved and why? If one is involved on the seller side, who are you dealing with?

Yes and no, depends on the situation. Some sellers don't want the bother others don't want to pay the fee.



Two final, interesting questions from the first mate and deck hands.
- Why do people take pictures of their boats with everything left in it? We see v-berths with sails and ropes, kitchens with dirty dishes, salons that look like they are lived in. All the things people would never do when posting their car or home pictures.

They don't want top dollar for their boat? Got me.

- If we are spending the weekend and want two cabins – one for the teen kids and one for the adults what have you found a successful layout/size/design?

Considering we started out sailing as a family of 6 with week long cruises on a 21 footer I think I am the wrong guy to ask. My wife did the same as a kid but on a 20 footer in the Caribbean for longer times then a week.

Do what works for you guys. Good luck.

Here is our 35 year old boat and the thundering herd readying her for a race. Nick, no comment about boom height.

[ciclon1942]

I read with interest that a boats is getting past it after aboat 8-10 years, I would like to say that I sail aboard a boat which was built in Cuba in 1942, she has been well looked after and she terns heads in every port with a beauty which is not there today. Aside from her beauty she offers speed on all quarters but especialy to windward, a balanced feel and seakeeping which is not available in most of todays sailing boats, If her owner back in 1942 had thought the same as todays owners she may have made it to the 50's.

[jcmcdowell]

Our 1979 CSY 33' Ketch celebrated 30 years this year. We considered selling it and getting a Catamaran, but after seeing some production cats that were in the mid 80's- we changed our mind. The quality of our CSY 33 was SOOOO much better and we knew our boat inside and out after 5 years of ownership.

I think age is only the first criteria. Condition is a much larger part of the equation. That being said, you'll never get anywhere near the value for a 30 year old boat as you would a 5 year old boat. If you want a bargain- find a well maintained older boat that costs 1/4 of a newer boat.

Always remember- A boat is a hole in the water in which you through money. It is almost ALWAYS a financially losing proposition.

[James S]

Great pic Joli....she’s a beauty.

[cantxsailor]

My 1978 Pacific Seacraft 25 has been a very good boat. I bought her very "right" so I could overlook most of her troubles. The hull and decks were sound but everything else not so much. I rebuilt, upgraded, or replaced every system in the boat(except the motor).

She was finally ready for sea in the summer of '08. We were headed for the keys in Novemeber.

Ike paid us a visit Sept 13th.

I've been rerebuilding parts of her since then.

Since she was out of the water anyway I rebuilt the engine. It ran (after getting it to start) ok, but was in reality on her last legs. In fact how it ran at all is a mystery to me. Bad rings, piston, piston pin and bushing, worn main bearings, burnt exhaust valve and seat, and compression so low ether was required EVERY time to get her to start. $500 DIY rebuild is a lot better than a $6500+ repower.

I have put 5 times(easily) what I paid for the boat but then I've never been considered terribly bright. Would I sell/trade her? Sure for a Crealock 34. But unless that happens or I win the lotto I guess I'll just continue to rerererepair stuff and continue to sail an old boat.

As was mentioned above, condition is everything if you can't(won't?) be doing the work yourself. My boat was at the edge. If I hadn't bought her when I did she wouldn't have made it another couple of years being neglected as she was.

I've seen many boats much newer but in much, much worse shape.

My suggestion is find a boat you can afford(cash of course is best)and like to look at and enjoy sailing. If it's in good shape buy it. If it's not in good shape but you really like it you have to decide if you can DIY or afford to have it made right.

If the numbers don't work keep looking. There are lots of "good old boats" out there and age is just a refference point............m