What sailboat would you recommend? 50k budget

[Crash1972]

CAN'T

[Gonsena]

I live in the med and have been looking for a boat since a while.
My advice is to stay under the 36feet with that budget.
Prices start to go up and for 40+ you need to think at least 100k (but+repairs)

As the med is an old place you can find tons of boats and models from country to country. They might be known locally due to the builder or can be a random builder that has stopped doing boats or just did a few in the past (look out for this). This might change the performance and style.
If you are gonna live on the boat I would look for a cruiser with a comfortable space.
For the fixer upper think that that can take you 6 months to an year just to do some changes.

Think if you want to live on docking or on anchor this can change some requirements.
Look for the headroom if you are taller than 1.75m
Search on local "online used sites" and on Facebook.
If you are not experienced on what to look on the boat consider on doing a survey.
Read books related to the topic (I recommend inspecting the ageing sailboat of Don Casey).
Do some courses of weekends and ask the captain how many feet he thinks you can handle.

Remember to take your time with your decision and be sure if the needs you have. With my gf we thought we wanted 33 and after 1 week on a 33 and one week on a 40 we decided to go for a 50 as we plan on working and living on it with anchor for long periods of time and the requirements and budget changed

[ErnestV]

Originally Posted by ShipOfFools

First thing i need to know my month to month costs of renting a boat slip with power in the countries of Montenegro, Greece, Italy, Croatia, or all of the above depending on which port im going into.

Thats an easy thing to do, and Dr.Google might come to help - just search for boatyards/marinas in the countries you're interested in.

Since I'm doing the same research just now I know that for example in Croatia you can expect approx. EUR 4k-6k per year for space in the water for a boat sized 36'/38', Greece being a tad less expensive. Don't forget that there are additional costs for the permit (license to sail a countries' waters) per year, these are also grouped by boat length.

Additionally as an American living abroad in the EU don't forget that either your vessel needs to leave the EU every 3 months, or you must import it into the EU and pay VAT (if not already done) - but then there might be issues with boat ownership, but I don't know a lot about this topic. You should consult a broker or importer to clarify this before you buy.

30 to 50k (EUR? USD?)? Would probably confine you to a boat max. 36', built 1995 or earlier. I'd suggest no more than 4 persons including you, and already this will get a bit cramped as liveaboard. 34'-36' is perfect for a couple, though, and easy to be singlehanded.

Singlehanding? Don't rely too much on tech and automation but even more on simplicity and less complexity, keep the sail area manageable, and keep a good look at the manoeverability in confined spaces as you will not have a (bigger) crew to help.

I'd suggest to crew on deliveries a couple of times before deciding which type of boat so you get a feeling for the different types.

[Kismet36]

I have a nice Westerly Corsair for sale, but it's in Florida. I've lived on it and kept it up for 5 years. With a bit more money spent on upgrades she could be sailed to the Med, or if you see one there I would recommend it as a possibility.

www.sailboatlistings.com/view/88655"

[goboatingnow]

Additionally as an American living abroad in the EU don't forget that either your vessel needs to leave the EU every 3 months, or you must import it into the EU and pay VAT (if not already done) - but then there might be issues with boat ownership, but I don't know a lot about this topic. You should consult a broker or importer to clarify this before you buy.

this isnt correct , the Temporary VAT relief is 18 months ( as the Brits will discover !!)

[goboatingnow]

Here's a few requirements...

cost: 20,000 to 50,000 USD used price... can be more $ for extras
live aboard convenience ... must have...
length 30 to 45 feet... below 45' is a must
need ability to sail this on my own...must have
sailboat but with inboard or outboard motor with plenty of gas...nice to have
Europe, Mediterranean... ill be buying this here... must have....
blue water/ocean cruiser/circumnavigation... nice to have
stylish interior and exterior... nice to have
age... from 1980 to 2005... nice to have
fixer upper.... im fine doing boat maintenance as im basically retired..

What manufacturer and model would you recommend? thanks i have no problem buying a fixer upper and putting elbow greese into fixing it as im basically going to be a live aboard and consider myself a hard worker. A few other minor requirements, ill be in a port in the Mediterranean so ill be looking to buy it over there, and obviously not in the USA.
I may have guests, so ill need sleeping quarters for myself plus at least a few other people, at least, perhaps as many as 5. Sometimes ill prefer to sail the boat alone, so it will need to be small enough for me to sail by myself. For the price id shoot for something in the 20 to 50k range, but if extras were another 10k, thats also fine. Thanks for your advice. ShipOfFools.

The lower end of your budget will be very challenging, 40K euros will currently get a reasonable/good 36 footer , from the Bav,Bene,Jenn stable typically with a reasonable med setup ( solar, big bimini etc )

Fixers uppers are a " great idea" the troublle is ascertaining what to " fix up" , wet decks , dead engines , dodgy deck hardware, leaks damaging head liners and interiors etc . This can turn into a world of money and time ( and in 35 degree + heat )

Remember teh Med is the biggest sailing ground in the world, in season , everywhere is crowded and expensive and getting more expensive by the minute ), yards are expensive , professional trades are expensive etc

The romantic idea of finding a cheap hideaway in the med, is about 25 years too late.

expect a berth to be 5K a year for a 35 footer in the eastern med, even more in areas of france and italy ( and getting a annual berth is becoming more and more difficult )

Id buy a stock med boat , easy to fix up , readily available parts , not overly expensive

with your budget you will most likely end up a VAT paid boat , however as a US citizen ( I presume ) That vat status will be lost the minute you leave EU waters, so almost inevitably you will be on the 18 months VAT relief system , not a problem , sail out of the EU for a day every 18 months and the boats fine . ( you personally will only have 6 months on your tourist VISA)

just assume operating costs are 2x youre expectations and youll be fine for the med!!

[goboatingnow]

Since I'm doing the same research just now I know that for example in Croatia you can expect approx. EUR 4k-6k per year for space in the water for a boat sized 36'/38', Greece being a tad less expensive. Don't forget that there are additional costs for the permit (license to sail a countries' waters) per year, these are also grouped by boat length.

given Ive just done this , a 36 footer in Gouvia , Corfu is 4700 euros a year , Lefkas , 5172 euros a year, water and electricty etc ( prices for 2021 will be higher but not set yet) This is with a 20% discount for full 12 months in advance !!!

Greece is not cheap anymore , too many boats here now for that , Croatia is evern dearer

Haulouts range from 350 euro each way to 180 euros each way, trades are around 40 euros an hour

greek cruising tax , 30 euros a months for 12M or under , 8euros per metre per month above 12m , vat is at 24% and theres a 3.00 euro fee for any ATM withdrawals

[ErnestV]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

this isnt correct , the Temporary VAT relief is 18 months ( as the Brits will discover !!)

You're correct - I mixed this up with the 3 months rule for persons (which will still be valid for the TO).
Actually all current boats in the UK have been EU VAT paid - what you mention will trigger for boats sold in the UK from 2021 on.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by ErnestV

You're correct - I mixed this up with the 3 months rule for persons (which will still be valid for the TO).
Actually all current boats in the UK have been EU VAT paid - what you mention will trigger for boats sold in the UK from 2021 on.

once a UK tax resident sails a ANY EU boat out of EU waters( on/after 1st Jan) its exported and looses it VAT status , The VAT status only remains if the boat never leaves EU waters ( thats 12 miles offshore !!!) as the UK is a " third country status , then ) the UK tax resident cant avail of RGR ( returned goods relief) , which is what allows EU tax residents to sail back into EU waters in a VAT paid boat and " regain the VAt status" ( RGR allows you to reimport goods that you own back into the EU for absences of up to three years , without paying import VAT ) .

remember VAT is a transaction tax , not an asset tax, it can be paid multipole times over the life of a product !!

[ShipOfFools]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

The lower end of your budget will be very challenging, 40K euros will currently get a reasonable/good 36 footer , from the Bav,Bene,Jenn stable typically with a reasonable med setup ( solar, big bimini etc )

Fixers uppers are a " great idea" the troublle is ascertaining what to " fix up" , wet decks , dead engines , dodgy deck hardware, leaks damaging head liners and interiors etc . This can turn into a world of money and time ( and in 35 degree + heat )

Remember teh Med is the biggest sailing ground in the world, in season , everywhere is crowded and expensive and getting more expensive by the minute ), yards are expensive , professional trades are expensive etc

The romantic idea of finding a cheap hideaway in the med, is about 25 years too late.

expect a berth to be 5K a year for a 35 footer in the eastern med, even more in areas of france and italy ( and getting a annual berth is becoming more and more difficult )

Id buy a stock med boat , easy to fix up , readily available parts , not overly expensive

with your budget you will most likely end up a VAT paid boat , however as a US citizen ( I presume ) That vat status will be lost the minute you leave EU waters, so almost inevitably you will be on the 18 months VAT relief system , not a problem , sail out of the EU for a day every 18 months and the boats fine . ( you personally will only have 6 months on your tourist VISA)

just assume operating costs are 2x youre expectations and youll be fine for the med!!

Got it, one minor mistake.... in certain EU and eastern Euro countries a yacht gets you residency or citizenship, so as an American citizen this is just fab, of course if you are from EU then this probably doesn't make a difference for you! Otherwise math looking a bit bigger and more complex than i imagined but thats life.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by ShipOfFools

Got it, one minor mistake.... in certain EU and eastern Euro countries a yacht gets you residency or citizenship, so as an American citizen this is just fab, of course if you are from EU then this probably doesn't make a difference for you! Otherwise math looking a bit bigger and more complex than i imagined but thats life.

Whaaaa, what EU country gives you residency if you buy a yacht lol. ( never mind actual citizenship !!!!)

[ShipOfFools]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Whaaaa, what EU country gives you residency if you buy a yacht lol. ( never mind actual citizenship !!!!)

Montenegro, they have a nice harbor over by Kotor, its much less popular than Croatia but still okay. For citizenship i think you need to invest $300,000 but for residency just a boat is enough. There are also a few other countries that accept real estate investments for citizen, but the totals are pretty steap like $500k to $1 million.

[carraigdog]

Interesting thread, close to my own situation and budget.
Does anyone know if you buy an ex charter boat in Greece, that is also flagged as Greece, does this mean you must pay the Greek purchase vat rate, or could you sail it to Malta and pay the lower Maltese vat rate ?

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by carraigdog

Interesting thread, close to my own situation and budget.
Does anyone know if you buy an ex charter boat in Greece, that is also flagged as Greece, does this mean you must pay the Greek purchase vat rate, or could you sail it to Malta and pay the lower Maltese vat rate ?

if you are not VAT registered , its technically illegal for a company , ie the charter company to sell you the boat physically in greece ex-VAT. They would remain liable for greek VAT even after the sale

The boat would have to be delivered to malta by the owners and the deal done there, ( there is a somewhat complex method whereby you can do this yourself )

Note that VAT law states that the buyer must pay the VAT in the originating country and then when evidence of VAT is paid in the receiving country , then the seller refunds the VAT. The UK has ( had) a scheme called the sailaway scheme that allowed you 30 days to remove the boat . However I dont believe greece every operated such a scheme ( see VAT on new-means-of-transport)

whether all that hassle is worth 6% VAT difference on a boat is up to you

NOTE , if you are not EU established that you can buy a VAT not paid boat in teh EU quite legally , and you can available of the TIR provisions to get 18 months sailing, with one-day VAT clock reset , effectively remaining VAT not paid indefinitely ( in theory you are supposed to export it and reenter to avail of TIR (

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by ShipOfFools

Montenegro, they have a nice harbor over by Kotor, its much less popular than Croatia but still okay. For citizenship i think you need to invest $300,000 but for residency just a boat is enough. There are also a few other countries that accept real estate investments for citizen, but the totals are pretty steap like $500k to $1 million.

Montenegro not being in the EU of course !!

The blurb on residency in Montenegro says its only applies to certain Government approved property schemes and varies from 100,000 euros to 250,000. I doubt it applies to yachts !!

INVESTMENT OPTIONS
Government Fund Donation
Applicants must make a contribution of €100,000 in the form of a government fund donation.

Real Estate Investment
In addition to the donation, applicants are required to invest in approved real estate projects in the country. Depending on where the selected projects are, applicants will have the choice of the following investment levels:

€250,000 investment in an undeveloped region (north of the country), or
€450,000 investment in a developed region (south of the country).

note the 100,000 " gift " to the Gov ,