When is a boat too big?

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by Exile

Mine is long overdue then. And when I bought the boat 12 years ago I removed the vertical battens and had the mainsail recut. It's terribly bagged out now & needs replacement. But the Hood Stoway furler only ever jammed in the early days when I didn't understand how to operate it. Now it hasn't jammed in years. I read similarly positive reviews about the Selden's.

So for the record, in mast furling jamming even once, for whatever reason, can be a very, very, bad thing.

The incidence in-mast furling jamming, is too frequent for my liking, compared to non in-mast furling.

They are surely great when they work, but when they jam up, it can create a very serious safety hazard, while trying to wrestle with it in high winds.

In high winds, when dousing a sail, if it jams up part way and won't go in or out, things can get very serious, very fast; it makes no difference that is was poor design, poor maintenance, or operator error.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

So for the record, in mast furling jamming even once, for whatever reason, can be a very, very, bad thing.

The incidence in-mast furling jamming, is too frequent for my liking, compared to non in-mast furling.

They are surely great when they work, but when they jam up, it can create a very serious safety hazard, while trying to wrestle with it in high winds.

In high winds, when dousing a sail, if it jams up part way and won't go in or out, things can get very serious, very fast; it makes no difference that is was poor design, poor maintenance, or operator error.

All no doubt correct. But at least in my case I've never experienced this. Even in the early days I was attentive enough to immediately back off on the toggle switch as soon as I heard the electric motor starting to bog down (there's also an alarm if you persist). So early on I certainly experienced some momentary jamming, but it was temporary and easily resolved.

But I have had crew members who are less attentive and more ham-fisted, perhaps being over-confident that any device that's "powered" will overcome the inevitable forces in play. This is why I'm inclined to attribute much of the reported problems to operator error rather than an inherent flaw in the design or concept. Not sure about the Selden's, Amel's, or others, but one would really have to go pretty far out of his/her way to jam the Hood Stoway to the point where it could create the safety hazard you describe. These systems have been around for a long time at this point, and plenty have circumnavigated.

But as you well know, anything's possible on a boat, including what is not always contemplated. As noted, there are also some well-known performance drawbacks to in-mast furling, although I have to say that my boat has no trouble whatsoever reaching hull speed in reasonable wind conditions. So maybe what performance is lost due to the sail being unfooted, for e.g., or the efficiency loss from sail shape when reefed, is made up for by total sail area and other factors which make up for it. For me anyway, it's a more than reasonable trade-off and I wouldn't trade it for sailpacks or other more traditional systems. But many others I know disagree with my opinion, so YMMV obviously.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by Exile

All no doubt correct. But at least in my case I've never experienced this.

Well, as I say to everyone in this kind of circumstance.

You have been lucky.

Count your blessings.

There is always tomorrow.

One question...

"Given the choice between a quality "open" drum vs similar quality "closed" drum foresail furler, which would you choose?"

What makes mainsail furling any different, other than it is not just the drum, but the drum and entire foil that is enclosed?

To me, the basic concept of mainsail furling is brilliant, but the concept of in-mast furling poor.

[Manateeman]

Greetings good kind sir. You have stated both you and your wife are R Y A certified sailors. Ask yourself, given this good start, why you cannot just give it a go. I take it, that you fear an expensive mistake. Who has not. Show me a boatbuilder who has never made an error or a sailor who has never made a huge mistake. The Portuguese have a terrific expression. If you want to learn how to pray...go to sea.
Please listen to owners like JEDI . His point being that advice is put forward from those who have NEVER owned a 60’ vessel.
For example, trientepieds. 3000 posts, refuses to state his confirable resume. Hides behind the anonymity of the web and takes it upon himself to interject his personal opinions on any subject because, I guess, he knows everything. LOL.
Never states what boats he has personally built. Never states his licenses or marine education. Blah Blah Blah. There is one on every piling in any port. Note the volume of their prior deposits.
Stormalong’s point. Complex systems. Good grief. LOL. Well perhaps. If you believe you two are not up to the task. But I doubt that very much ! The simple fact you seek credible advice from large boat owners, tells me you ARE prudent mariners. Unfortunately, separating the armchair experts from real sailors might sometimes prove difficult . Be specific. Ask what did one learn when your age exceeds 60 feet. Do not doubt the value of your own experience in smaller vessels. Trust one another. It’s the real key. You’ll be fine.
You’ll be fine.
Mark the manatee.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by captmikem

I think size is a real grey area. I started cruising on a 26’ Columbia without an engine… It was a bit small.

I took an Alden 54 across the Atlantic, thru the Med, and back to the US most of the time just the two of us (my wife) and it seemed the ideal size for a couple.

I then took an 80’ Frers around the world with my wife, and it seemed the ideal size. Both these boats had traditional rigs, roller furling headsails (both were cutters) full batten mains with jiffy (slab) reefing all lines led to the base of the mast. We flew chutes whenever possible (the poles on the 80’ were carbon fiber so they were manageable). The 54 had a couple of electric winches and the 80’ had mostly hydraulic winches.

I then finished the building of a 154 ketch. She was a beautiful boat but took a crew of 4 to sail, and the in-boom furling was a nightmare. All the winches were hydraulic and the halyard winches on drums in the bilge. She was 200’ on the mainmast and drew 14’. She was too big for cruising IMHO.

After getting divorced I then had an HR 38, Then a KP 46. The KP 46 is a great boat for a single hander or a couple, comfortable offshore boat. I was happy with both.

Size a relative thing, and I think you have to go a long ways to find something “Too Big”.

M

Thanks for the bio.

[anacapaisland42]

When it's too much for your wife to handle alone
Bill

[Leighpilot]

Your boat is already too big. Sell it and buy a smaller one. You’ll be happier. Just charter a bigger boat for the two weeks a year that your kids visit.

[DuncanWells]

May I recommend Stress Free Sailing. This book will help with short handed sailing and mooring. DW

[tgradyv7m]

It is to big when:

Cost: When the coat of ownership of 10%/yr rule of the purchase price is to much.
Moorage: When you don't have a space to put her.
Handling: When you cannot handle her when everything falls apart.
Access: When you don't go ashore in the dinghy because it is to much trouble

BTW: Ever consider a catamaran? Lots of room and since you are not going out in nasty weather, anchoring a lot and money is not an issue it might be a good alternative.

[Dennis.G]

My wife and I bought our 48 foot sailboat when we sold our house and moved on full time. We found it a good size for full time live aboard, although it was on the larger size of what we were shopping for (mostly were looking for something 42 to 45 foot). After some time our plans changed and we bought a small summer cottage on a lake in far Northern Michigan and now spend about 5 or 6 months a year on our boat. Although we still love our boat I wish we had something smaller, say 38 to 40 foot. Not really due to issues handling the boat, but mostly due to just routine maintenance. Depends on what you do yourselves and what you may hire out, but maintenance on a 55 foot or larger boat can be a bit overwhelming as I have seen from some of my cruising friends. If you have the budget to hire some guys to clean and polish at each port maybe not so big an issue, otherwise count on spending a lot more time working on your boat than those who have smaller boats.

Also, and this might just be us, but we have found much less visitors spending time on our boat than we had originally thought. Lots of friends had said they would love to spend time sailing with us but when it comes down to it they usually have other things to do with their vacation time. If you have kids with their own children, they might want to visit you at some port, but will likely be more happy staying at a hotel with a swimming pool and just going out for a day sail or an overnighter (seen this several times with friends with boats and with our own relatives). Getting a boat based on possible visitors not really a good idea in my experience.

The above are just my opinions, no need for people to tell me I am wrong.

[robertevans]

My wife and I with 2 kids failed to sail on a 50ft after 7 months. tried to sell over winter.
we decided to have another go, we hired a very experienced skipper who showed us the easy way to do everything, we then had the confidence to anything with the boat and sail 5000 miles round the Mediterranian.
We now have a 46ft cat
my advice is to get the size of the boat you would like and if you struggle, get someone very experienced to show you how to make it easy.

[JMaav]

Originally Posted by Haddock1

I am considering moving up in hull length from a 46 footer...

I am 64, and went through the same exercise as you at 62. However, I decided it was time to get the kids more involved in the boating… And did not necessarily feel it was important to have them sleeping with me every night! After looking at several 50 footers… I decided to stay with my 34 ft custom Luders built yawl, and buy a smaller sleep aboard power yacht. In my case, a Black Watch 28.
Now… The kids follow us from port to port (well, we catch up with them!). They also get to enjoy their own outings… and have been slowly paying us back for the boat!
It’s turned out to be an excellent approach. I highly recommend it!

[Rainbow48]

Haddock1, Sailing / cruising for over 55 years, here, most of it in larger wooden boats, and most of the time single handed. When I was much younger, an old time sailor, who was well known in the “old days”, once told me that boat size was determined by one’s ability to handle the largest sail, and the largest anchor. My current boat is 63 ft, wood, traditional, no halyard or sheet winches. Routinely single hand, including offshore. If you upgrade in size, I would suggest you go with a split rig, such as a ketch.

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by anacapaisland42

When it's too much for your wife to handle alone
Bill

GREAT answer.

[WKW]

Go to 50' and call it a day.