When is a Sailboat too old to purchase?

[roland stockham]

One of th most successful cruisers I have ever met spent 26years doing a double circumnavigation in a wooden lifeboat (the old RNLI sailing lifeboat from St Davids in the UK) that was built in the late 18 hundreds. So age is irrelevant but the boat is not. Ther are new and old boats I would take anywhere and new an old boat I would not want to take further than I can row!

[joelhemington]

Originally Posted by danleach

There's a Niagara 42 for sale in Rochester, NY right now with a brand new engine. Sweet. https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/198...ra-42-3689424/

That's a very well equipped boat that obviously has been meticulously upgraded over the years with quality stuff. Alas, it may be a lot more boat than the OP was looking for as this one easily could do a circumnavigation.

[cellosail]

I have a 1966 Islander 29 I’ve put a lot of work into over the years. Sails great, looks great, tough as nails, but not fancy inside. Just right for me.

Cellosail

[JimsCAL]

Assuming the mast is carbon fiber like the 30, that would be my concern. Replacing mast would cost more than the boat is worth.

[CarinaPDX]

The OP asked about the used motor boat market dropping after 20 years but sailboats tailing off more gradually. I think that when buying a motor boat the engine (or engines) is critical to the purchase. For whatever reason older motor boats typically are offered with the original power plant. Older motor boats usually have gasoline engines, which are undesirable due to fuel expense, and are costly to convert to diesel. OTOH cruising sailboats went to diesel earlier, and the small diesels are less of the value of the boat. Many sailboats re-power at 30-40 years (as I am doing) so have modern performance under power. If you dig into the sail market you will find older boats with the Atomic 4 gasoline engines, and they are not worth much as the cost to convert to diesel is going to be at least $20k (which means that in practice it isn't done unless it is an especially nice boat). At least that is how I see it.

Greg

[MCOS]

All depends on condition, how well it was kept up. Prime example, USS CONSTITUTION.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Looks like his list doesn't include fin keel boats just those with the following criteria.....

Aside from a few exceptions, all boats here meet the following criteria of proven seaworthiness, moderate draft under 5-foot, tiller steering, either traditional full keel or, more commonly, relatively long three-quarter keels (full keel with cutaway forefoot) with keel attached rudder, room for one or two people to live-aboard in reasonable comfort, fiberglass construction for ease of maintenance and availability, and this sailor’s idea of functional and attractive design.

I'd never noticed this excerpt from this oft-quoted list...

I must say that I would never include either shallow draft or tiller steering as necessary features in a seaworthy boat. To me, deeper draft is a positive in terms of seaworthiness, and wheel vs tiller pretty inconsequential as long as they are well built... just like most other factors in boat design including the length of the keel and design of the rudder.

I'm not saying that the Atoms list does not include many suitable vessels, but that to reject all those that do not meet his (to me) poorly supported criteria is not a good idea.

I would wager a substantial sum that a census of boats that are actively pursuing long range cruising today would show that the majority do not meet the above listed factors. Most of them are successful.

Jim

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

I'd never noticed this excerpt from this oft-quoted list...

I must say that I would never include either shallow draft or tiller steering as necessary features in a seaworthy boat. To me, deeper draft is a positive in terms of seaworthiness, and wheel vs tiller pretty inconsequential as long as they are well built... just like most other factors in boat design including the length of the keel and design of the rudder.

I'm not saying that the Atoms list does not include many suitable vessels, but that to reject all those that do not meet his (to me) poorly supported criteria is not a good idea.

I would wager a substantial sum that a census of boats that are actively pursuing long range cruising today would show that the majority do not meet the above listed factors. Most of them are successful.

Jim

I'm thinking he just stayed with what he knew. I think he did most of his cruising in the early 80's plus he worked at several boat yards during his 2 circumnavigations.

He (James Baldwin) still owns his boat Atom that he circumnavigated on those 2 times. It's now powered by a Tohatsu 6 hp 4 stroke. Many times he was without an engine on his circumnavigations.

https://www.atomvoyages.com/atom.html

His site is still a good guide though I think for beginner cruisers

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Quote: "When is a Sailboat too old...?"

What do you mean by "too old"? In what sense could a boat be too old? Too old for what?"

Or did you mean "too decrepit"

As one of our sages said many years ago: "Wooden boats are on life support from the moment they leave the builder's yard. Fibreglass boats you have to ASSASSINATE!"

A "frozen snot" hull, in my latitudes and yours, endures forever. Everything else, everything that attaches to the hull, and everything that lies loose within it, is a consumable. Everything, including rig and engine! "Use it up, Wear it out, Make it Do!" as the saying used to go. In many cases you can even observe the 4th bit that used to be part of that maxim: "Do without!"

As you know, economists distinguish twixt "value in trade" ("price") and "value in use" ("utility"). A 50 year old well kept yacht that suits you will have greater utility that a brand new one that DOESN'T suit you. Yet the golden oldie will have a price that is a mere fraction of the price of a new or nearly new one.

No-one should pay more money for a boat than he can walk away from with a smile still on his face. Everyone should understand that the simplest of boats will require an annual budget for maintenance, repair and replacement, i.e. for buying consumables including rig and engine, and that whatever money is spent for such purposes will never be recovered.

So buy an oldie. Keep what you can use of the things you find aboard her, add what she doesn't have that you can't live without, chuck out what she has aboard that is of no interest to you, and start putting a coupla boatbux into a sinking fund each month to keep on top of the need to replace consumables.

All the best

TrentePieds

Give the man a Bounty Bar..

[Brian N]

I own an 80's Nonsuch. It's all about the condition. Moreover, the International Nonsuch Association is a pretty tight-knit group, with a number of members up in your neck of the woods. If you were to join the discussion group (it's a google group), you'd undoubtedly find one or more members who know the boat, the history, and the previous owner(s) going back decades, and can provide you some additional information that you may not get from an owner whose primary purpose is to sell the boat.


Additionally, they can provide you with information on reputable surveyors and where to get OEM and aftermarket bespoke parts, including sails and hardware. That is the only other mailing list I read daily (other than cruisersforum).


b. (the other one.)

[nortonscove]

Originally Posted by Tor271

I am a longtime boater, but finally decided to make the shift to sailing! I am looking at something in the 25-27 foot range. The model that has caught my eye is the Nonsuch 26 Classic. My concern is that it is a 1985.

When buying and selling used motor boats in the past, most are 5-20 years old, and after that mostly on their way out. But, it seems for sailboats, 20, 30 and even 40 year old boats are common and still hold substantial value.

What is the difference? And, am I safe buying a 35 year old boat - with new many upgrades to equipment - will I still be able to retain some value if I want to sell in 5 or 10 years?

Thanks for your thoughts on question - and my possible new purchase.

You'll find that the biggest difference in power and sail is the amount of fibreglass used in the layup. Sailboats have an incredible amount of stress in the areas dealing with the fight between the mast with sails and the keel that really just wants to sink to the bottom in the straightest possible line. Power boats have a bit of additional glass around the engines and not much else. Power boats also spend their time pounding themselves to a premature death.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by nortonscove

You'll find that the biggest difference in power and sail is the amount of fibreglass used in the layup. Sailboats have an incredible amount of stress in the areas dealing with the fight between the mast with sails and the keel that really just wants to sink to the bottom in the straightest possible line. Power boats have a bit of additional glass around the engines and not much else. Power boats also spend their time pounding themselves to a premature death.

It depends on the hull. Some powerboats were built for speed and were built a bit lighter to save weight and cost. Others were built like tanks and even if run poorly and allowed to pound, they feel solid (not flexy) and hold up fine. Usually the under-built and abused hulls can be seen with issues like damaged bulkhead tabbing.

Examples of overbuilt hulls are the early Chris Craft Commanders, old Hatteras sport fishes, etc. They were all heavy boats and had a reputation for the hulls being a lot stronger than they really needed to be.

[westwon]

I've worked on 1940's aircraft in commercial use (grumman Goose). It's not the age, it's the maintenance.
A well found GRP boat can, quite literally, last forever.


Steve

[Westcliffe01]

Just dont do what the Dude from "Sail Life" (Youtube channel) did. Avoid older boats with balsa or other water sensitive core in the composite layup... In his case I think it was just the deck, but dang, what a job to replace all the core and reglass the outer surface. I just dont see how his project makes any sense, whether financial or in terms of the hours/years involved, unless of course he is more interested in the restoration than simply owning an equivalent boat...

Its especially bad if the core is below the waterline since with time and stress, the highly stressed skins can develop cracks that let water into the core. Once the core loses its properties its game over. The hulls properties are gone, its going to deform, bend, twist and do all sorts of things a hull is not supposed to do. It seems many powerboats use balsa cor in the hull, above and below the waterline because of the pounding they take when running on the plane. This is one reason why the value of boats built with this method drop off a cliff when past a certain age, because they are being attacked from the top by rain and spray and from below by the water it is sitting in... The old adage goes, water always wins...

Recent video blogs on youtube of people buying and repairing newer multi hull boats that were damaged in recent hurricanes shows that a small area of visible damage typically leads to a square yard or more of core needing to be removed and replaced and new plies laid up on the outer surface. One also has to hope that a hull that has many such repairs has regained its structural integrity. It is really doubtful since a secondary bond with epoxy is most likely still not as strong as the original layup and the uni fibers are no longer continuous but have many overlaps and joins.

But the older solid fiberglass hulls tend to be very robust and if it ever gets damaged is pretty easy to repair. It may need osmosis repair, depending on when it was made (seems to be a crapshoot) but its not nearly as critical as a repair to a cored laminate with highly stressed skins.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by roland stockham

One of th most successful cruisers I have ever met spent 26years doing a double circumnavigation in a wooden lifeboat (the old RNLI sailing lifeboat from St Davids in the UK) that was built in the late 18 hundreds. So age is irrelevant but the boat is not. Ther are new and old boats I would take anywhere and new an old boat I would not want to take further than I can row!

The last Nosuch 26 I surveyed was in 2017. The boats do have issues.
If you email me at boatpoker@gmail.com
I'll reply with a redacted copy of that survey, it will give you an idea of what to look for