Why Are Bavaria Yachts Not Well-Liked Here ?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by wryanddry

Back to the original post, Firstly I don't own a boat and have very little sailing experience (CYA basic cruising course on a Catalina 28 footer and a bare boat charter of a Beneteau Oceanis 40 footer). I have been looking for 3-4 years at boats. Back when my wife and I first started thinking about cruising, we went to the the Annapolis boatshow, we came away from that show with several favorite boats, the Hanse I recall was our favorite. We were unimpressed by the Hinckleys and the Pacific Seacraft, the Hallberg Rasseys and the Malo and Najad, boy were those boats cramped and dark! We much preferred the wide open spaces afforded by the modern french and german designed boats. Then we went through a catamaran stage, definitely a cat for us, A Fountain Pajot or Leopard. Fast unsinkable loads of space. Dolphins frolicking under the trampoline etc.. Next time we went to the Annapolis show we started really talking to the sales people and sometimes the owners and were not so intimidated by the event, if you don't know the difference between a deck stepped mast and a keel stepped mast, or what a dutchman is or what lazyjacks do, you can feel quite out of your depth. plus we had another years research under our belts. We went back to the Hanse and couldn't quite believe that it was actually on our list! the floor panels moved and pinched bare feet, the vast expanses of white plastic, the sharp corners which looked modern now just looked sharp. We went to look at catamarans in the moorings and sunsail fleets and it was like being inside a giant hot tub with ikea cabinets bolted to the walls. Back on the Hinckley and Pacific Seacraft we couldn't help but admire the craftsmanship, but they were still cramped and dark, the Hallberg Rassey, Malo. Najad all made it to our list as did Hylas Tayana, Oyster, Discovery and Tartan. All these are "stick built" vs hull and liner. Unfortunately this comes at a cost so now we have to decide between an older stick built vs a newer hull/liner vessel. And we have to factor in the 80/20 rule. what will the boat be used for 80% of the time? cruising around a coast or in a marina/on the hook vs on a passage. realistically 90% of the time we will be coastal cruising or moored somewhere, so the passagemaking capabilities are less of a concern for us, but with 3 kids (17, 5 and 2yrs old) a stick built boat sure would make me feel more comfortable exposing my kids to a crossing. Oh and we added Wauquiez to that list (my wife loves the pilot salon) I believe that the reason people don't like Bavaria's is because they use a hull/liner construction, stick built is better (my opinion) but it costs more. Between the hull liner boats there are probably some better than others, at the boat show we ended up calling all the production boats "Jeneteaulinas" - Jenneau Beneteau Catalina - couldn't quite shoehorn Hunter in there. Still having said all that the Beneteau we sailed in Greece and the Catalina we learned in were both fit for that purpose, the Catalina seemed more solidly built, but maybe that was because it was smaller. with our budget I would pick a HR46, my wife would pick a Wauquiez 43 Pilot Saloon (but she is looking at Fountain Pajot's again Arrgh!!) Just need to win the lottery so we can afford a new 50' Oyster or Discovery!

What an entertaining and witty first post. I'm not commenting at all on the substance of your post but I like your writing style. Hope to see lots more from you.

[goboatingnow]

There is simply no body of evidence that says a Hull/liner is any worse or better then a "stick built " boat. Hull/liner systems exist ( to a lesser or larger) in "quality " production boats like Sweden Yachts, X Yachts, Contest etc. These boats compete with the like of Discovery HR etc. Remember on a low volume manufacturer like HR ( who is probably the biggest of the stick built) the economics of designing and using Hull Liners is dubious, it works a treat for large scale.

Also I think that bunching all production boats together as "Jeneteaulinas" is disengenious, I rate it in decending order as Jeanneau, Catalina/Beneteau then well back Hunter, and I have sailed all of them.

IF you have the money and are susceptible to the "BMW" style marketing message, then sure buy a HR or whatever. Ive seen them built, I remain unconvinced they are good value for money, Equally they are a minority producer in an already small niche.

I have a Range Rover sitting in my drive, would a Toyata do the job sure,( at 1/3 of the price, did I buy a TOyata no), ( well back in 2005 that is).

The main fact I, trying to get accross is not that HR arnt better then Beneteaus, sure they are, its that both are more then capable of doing what you want of them and that includes crossing oceans, which both makes have demonstrated again and again. ( Not singlely out HR and Beneteau, but you know what I mean).

Dave

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

There is simply no body of evidence that says a Hull/liner is any worse or better then a "stick built " boat. Hull/liner systems exist ( to a lesser or larger) in "quality " production boats like Sweden Yachts, X Yachts, Contest etc. These boats compete with the like of Discovery HR etc. Remember on a low volume manufacturer like HR ( who is probably the biggest of the stick built) the economics of designing and using Hull Liners is dubious, it works a treat for large scale.

Also I think that bunching all production boats together as "Jeneteaulinas" is disengenious, I rate it in decending order as Jeanneau, Catalina/Beneteau then well back Hunter, and I have sailed all of them.

IF you have the money and are susceptible to the "BMW" style marketing message, then sure buy a HR or whatever. Ive seen them built, I remain unconvinced they are good value for money, Equally they are a minority producer in an already small niche.

I have a Range Rover sitting in my drive, would a Toyata do the job sure,( at 1/3 of the price, did I buy a TOyata no), ( well back in 2005 that is).

The main fact I, trying to get accross is not that HR arnt better then Beneteaus, sure they are, its that both are more then capable of doing what you want of them and that includes crossing oceans, which both makes have demonstrated again and again. ( Not singlely out HR and Beneteau, but you know what I mean).

Dave

I think it might be less a question how well they are built, that it is a question of what they are designed for. I don't know about Hunters, but the Beneteau people achieve high levels of quality and low levels of defects. Hallberg-Rassey with older-fashioned hand methods are much more expensive but not necessarily higher quality in that sense. But they are designed for a different purpose -- heavier, more seaworthy, but slower. And they are much prettier with the elaborate hand-made finishing works. Prettier doesn't really necessarily mean higher quality.

HR are not a "good value for money" (neither are Oysters, Najads, or any of the other brands of that ilk). They are not meant to be. They are made for people who don't mind spending double the amount of money for that 10% increment of extra beauty. You can't compare them to BMW's -- that comparison is not fair to BMW, who do mass production very well and also deliver real value for the money, just in a higher category. It's more like Bentley, which is a lot of money for not much more car, but that extra something is worth the cost to a few people.

[goboatingnow]

Hallberg-Rassey with older-fashioned hand methods are much more expensive but not necessarily higher quality in that sense. But they are designed for a different purpose -- heavier, more seaworthy, but slower

This is not the case and talk to Beneteau to see why not, fundementally , particulary teh french simply dont accept that Hr and its ilk is a good sea boat, they want a fast boat above all. rmember sailing is virtually a national sport in france and their heros are national figures. ( and why people like Ellen mcarthur trained there). It is simply wrong to state that a HR ( whoses latest models are fin kneel and spade ruddes anyway) is "designed" to be more seaworthy and Beneteaus are not. Theres no evidence of that, IN fact in the modern HR there isnt even a chart table!.Handholds are as much of a problem as on many other boats .

SOrry , all you have said is just wishful thinking, Yes HR's ( and others) are beautiful boats, hand crafted ( at Swedish labour rates). Yet that in itsself doesnt make it better nor more seaworthy. Equally on a HR the deck gear/engines etc is all similar quality to Beneteaus, Its much more of a marketing game then anything to do with seaworthyness. HR and other high cost builders have to be seen to be "upmarket" otherwise thed never sell anything. ( mind you HR has suffered a big downturn in recent years)

I agree re the Bently analysis, but you are agreeing with me, just using a more accurate comparision

dave

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Johnathon123

... they aren't to my knowledge mainstream cruising boats.

What is then?
b.

[Johnathon123]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

What is then?
b.

The match design was specifically targeted at IMS and thus had a following in the racing world

The cruiser versions are all very mainstream and have a deck stepped rig

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

... Beneteau people achieve high levels of quality and low levels of defects. Hallberg-Rassey with older-fashioned hand methods are much more expensive but not necessarily higher quality in that sense...

... Prettier doesn't really necessarily mean higher quality ...

... HR are not a "good value for money" (neither are Oysters, Najads, or any of the other brands of that ilk)...

... They are made for people who don't mind spending double the amount of money for that 10% increment of extra beauty...

... You can't compare them to BMW's - that comparison is not fair to BMW ...

I do not think HR builders will agree with you.

I do not think HR owners will agree with you.

Even I do not agree with you.

But you made me smile.

;-)
b.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Johnathon123

The match design was specifically targeted at IMS and thus had a following in the racing world

The cruiser versions are all very mainstream and have a deck stepped rig

OK. Clear. I did not understand your OP when I read it the first time - since my question.

b.

[wryanddry]

meyermm,

"I believe that the reason people don't like Bavaria's is because they use a hull/liner construction, stick built is better (my opinion) but it costs more."

then I was attempting to describe our journey from being uninformed buyers drooling over a Hanse of all things, to ruling out production boats, to looking at what type of cruise we are planning and picking the best boat for the job. Do you really need a Hallberg Rassey for puttering around the Caribbean for a year or will a Beneteau do? Can you circumnavigate in a Hunter? probably, will you feel safer in a Najad, you bet.

Sorry if my verbiage bored you, buy you didn't have to read it. And yes you did deduct another message, every boat is a compromise.

[meyermm]

Originally Posted by wryanddry

meyermm,

"I believe that the reason people don't like Bavaria's is because they use a hull/liner construction, stick built is better (my opinion) but it costs more."

then I was attempting to describe our journey from being uninformed buyers drooling over a Hanse of all things, to ruling out production boats, to looking at what type of cruise we are planning and picking the best boat for the job. Do you really need a Hallberg Rassey for puttering around the Caribbean for a year or will a Beneteau do? Can you circumnavigate in a Hunter? probably, will you feel safer in a Najad, you bet.

Sorry if my verbiage bored you, buy you didn't have to read it. And yes you did deduct another message, every boat is a compromise.

If you enjoy writing then that's fine and I certainly did not feel it was badly written or boring I was just making the point that at the end all you were saying is all boats are a compromise, which is not a new point of view.

[barnakiel]

What would be wrong with hull and liner technology?

My boat has a half liner (double floor, bunks' sides and bunks' tops) and I love it - easy to clean and maintain, no varnishing, dusting, etc., ever.

I have been on a Vancouver with full liner - cabin ceiling was in cream coloured gelco with some wood trim (I think the wood was just deco) and it was even better than my boat.

So - what is the bad of such a design?

Definitely you are not talking aesthetics? Just look at Herreshoff's - he did the same aesthetics before we ever thought of liners.

b.

[cburger]

Liners make it a nightmare to access and repair areas betwen the hull and liner.

[rtbates]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Not so , have a look at modern Oysters, or Ovnis etc , They are all going towards less imersed forefoots and flatter canoe bodies , why becuase its SAILS BETTER, ( witness the Volvo, Vendee globe etc).

Dave

As to sailing better??? The Volvo footage that I've watched, numerous times, tends to make it appear that they are sailing a slightly submerged submarine... Four feet of green water from the bow to the stern...Hardly what I'd want in a cruiser...

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by cburger

Liners make it a nightmare to access and repair areas betwen the hull and liner.

How often do you access and repair these areas on your boat?

b.

[goboatingnow]

then I was attempting to describe our journey from being uninformed buyers drooling over a Hanse of all things, to ruling out production boats, to looking at what type of cruise we are planning and picking the best boat for the job.

A quite uniformed journey I suspect.

Do you really need a Hallberg Rassey for puttering around the Caribbean for a year or will a Beneteau do? Can you circumnavigate in a Hunter? probably, will you feel safer in a Najad, you bet.

No you'll feel much safer with a crew thats knows what they are doing then any particular type of boat, beleive me I know.

I do not think HR owners will agree with you.

Nobody thats has spent that amount of money for a small boat will want to be convinced they're that dumb. Theres no so blind as thoses that cannot see.

Dave