Why do you guys like monohulls so much?

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by smj

I’d suggest sailing lessons! LOL

Or at least some dagger boards. Ha ha

[smj]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

I'm wondering where you found this surprising statistic? Or, did you just make it up?



360 degree rolls are exceedingly rare outside of very high latitude sailing and very high latitude sailing isn't a common practice amongst the sailing community. Catamaran flipping is also rare, but we keep seeing examples posted (and I know you hate that because you invariably have scathing replies to such posts). With this highly unscientific argument I question that chances of a mono doing a 360 roll are "MUCH HIGHER" than a cat flipping.



Your other statements are likely accurate: mono knockdowns are more common than cat flipping... yep, definitely true. Mono sinkings equal to cat flipping... possibly true, especially if you include sinkings while moored due to equipment failures.



But really, making one's boat buying decisions on the basis of such very rare catastrophes is a mugs game. Most sailors will never experience conditions where either monos or catamarans are at risk of sinking/rolling/flipping so why base one's choice on a dubious interpretation of a very very small risk?



Jim

That was just the impression I got from events like the Queens birthday storm or the 79 Fastnet where numerous monohulls suffered 360 degree rollovers, some more than one and no catamarans flipped.
The insurance agent told me they considered the catamaran to be a slightly better risk than the monohull, but the catamaran was a much better risk when it came to bodily injury.
We also see numerous posts in this forum about monohull sinkings, yet it’s very rare for a Multihuller to stir the pot in those posts.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Cruising monos are vastly dangerous in knock downs. They always carry (inside and out) too much stuff. This stuff starts flying, damaging more stuff, and people. Also most cruising monos lack safe watertight entry. Once the boat gets flooded, crews' spirit tends to sink (faster than the boat, in fact).

Racing monos are built, and kept, to take a wipe-out in their stride. Also racers are way more fit than cruisers.

This is to say if you think your chances of getting a bad wipe out are high, get a racing-quality design, keep her light and uncluttered, and stay fit. A monkey will hang on to anything but a pig will fly.

b.

I keep seeing the term "knock down" and it seems to strike fear in the hearts of many sailors. Especially newbie sailors who tend to ask such questions as "Have you ever been in a knock down and did anybody survive?"

But to be honest with you I think there is more than one definition of a "knock down" and the one which seems to terrify newbies is fairly rare. Rare to the point of being unlikley to ever happen to you or anyone you know.

1. A boat being knocked down by a wave (wind alone won't do it) beyond horizontal, and maybe staying there for a period of time. As bad as this sounds it does not usually sink a boat (maybe a J-24). Even on it's side for a long time does not often cause a boat to flood or sink. Rolling? Yes, but that is even far more rare. I personally know of one rollover (and the boat did not sink or even lose it's mast). I think people stay awake at night thinking about these "knock downs". Some might decide not to go across oceans because of fear of these "knock downs".
   
   More realistically a severe knock down would be this:
   
   
2. Knocked down by wind which overpowers the sails, rudder and keel and puts the boat on its side, maybe nearly horizontal (rarely). Water comes onto the side deck and sometimes into the cockpit. Sails flog and people (some people) shout and the boat eventually stands up and people calm down and life goes on (usually with less sail up). This is more common but still rare. It can be wind induced or combined with waves. If you don't fall off or get your fingers caught in between a line and something hard, you'll be OK.
   
   And then there is the one we all experience from time to time (except on cats. I don't think they do this stuff, they have another whole routine which strikes fear into people's hearts, but that is another topic).
   
   And that is the definition which I grew up with which is:
   
   
3. This type of knock down is when a gust of wind hits your boat and overpowers the rudder and you sudenly heel quite a lot and turn into the wind and sails flap, people go "eek". It is usually sudden and that is what makes it scary. Then the gust passes and the boat stands up and things return to normal. In 34 years sailing this boat of ours we have had a few of this type of knock downs, although I don't recall any of them, but never type 1 or type 2.

The problem is that when people get back to the dock and they tell the avid listeners that they had a "knock down" it was really type 3, but the listeners imagine it was type 1.

As to barnakiel's point, keep your decks clear and your cabin properly stowed and the knockdowns you have (if you ever get to experience one) won't be any big deal.

And to choose a catamaran because monohulls have knockdowns and sink, well that's not a very valid criteria for choosing a boat, I think. There are bigger worrys when going cruising.

[newhaul]

I noticed on here that 99% of the people posting about a mono sinking are cat owners . I have seen several cats upside down and more than a couple monos go full 360 and both keep floating more often than sinking .

The mono just doesn't stay upside down.
As to the monos carrying to much crap well cats carry even more and if it is properly stored on either it won't be a problem however on monos the big stuff is usually better secured than the same stuff on a cat due to the known fact of heeling on a mono .

[Jim Cate]

That was just the impression I got from events like the Queens birthday storm or the 79 Fastnet where numerous monohulls suffered 360 degree rollovers, some more than one and no catamarans flipped.

OK, lets agree that in the QB storm, several monohulls were rolled and none of the three cats involved flipped. This was an event with normal cruising boats in conditions that were reported by experienced pros as "worst ever"... absolutely devastating seas, but reportedly worse in some sectors than others. There were IIRC around 50 monohulls and three cats involved. One of the cats was abandoned and then deliberately smashed and sunk by the rescuing freighter, leaving two. One, Ramtha, was abandoned whilst hanging from a parachute anchor (again IIRC) and was later recovered and restored. This is a super outcome, and one that does show that cats can survive a lot when properly managed... or even on their own if well set up. I do not remember the details of the third one and won't comment on her. The statistics of this storm do show that monohulls are not immune to disaster, but it does not show that cats are so immune.

The Fastnet is a different situation. The boats involved that were rolled were IOR raceboats. That rule penalized stability, and the designs were deliberately destabilized in order to improve their rating to speed ratios with little thought about ultimate survivability in harsh conditions. This is a far cry from cruising boat design, and again IIRC some more conventional designs survived that race quite well. And one result of that race disaster was big changes in the design parameters of the IOR and later rating systems. And finally, I don't think there were any multihull entrants in that race (could be wrong about that) and hence none to flip.

A final thought: those two events were truly nasty storms, and the storms devastated the fleets. The typical catamaran inversions we read about don't happen in such catastrophic events, but rather in more moderate conditions where sudden increments in wind speed have caused the capsize. And this, I think, is what influences folks to worry about cat inversions: the requirement to maintain a higher degree of awareness whilst cruising, even under fairly normal conditions. On most monohulls a cleated mainsheet isn't a worry!

I'm not on either side of the argument here and appreciate many of the benefits of multihull designs. Rather I'm interested in the reasoning that goes into boat selection, and I don't think that 360 degree rolls or cat inversions should be high on the list of criteria. And the insurance actuarial data seem to say that overall, the risks are pretty similar. Fancy that!

Jim

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I keep seeing the term "knock down" and it seems to strike fear in the hearts of many sailors. Especially newbie sailors who tend to ask such questions as "Have you ever been in a knock down and did anybody survive?"

But to be honest with you I think there is more than one definition of a "knock down" and the one which seems to terrify newbies is fairly rare. Rare to the point of being unlikley to ever happen to you or anyone you know.

1. A boat being knocked down by a wave (wind alone won't do it) beyond horizontal, and maybe staying there for a period of time. As bad as this sounds it does not usually sink a boat (maybe a J-24). Even on it's side for a long time does not often cause a boat to flood or sink. Rolling? Yes, but that is even far more rare. I personally know of one rollover (and the boat did not sink or even lose it's mast). I think people stay awake at night thinking about these "knock downs". Some might decide not to go across oceans because of fear of these "knock downs".
   
   More realistically a severe knock down would be this:
   
   
2. Knocked down by wind which overpowers the sails, rudder and keel and puts the boat on its side, maybe nearly horizontal (rarely). Water comes onto the side deck and sometimes into the cockpit. Sails flog and people (some people) shout and the boat eventually stands up and people calm down and life goes on (usually with less sail up). This is more common but still rare. It can be wind induced or combined with waves. If you don't fall off or get your fingers caught in between a line and something hard, you'll be OK.
   
   And then there is the one we all experience from time to time (except on cats. I don't think they do this stuff, they have another whole routine which strikes fear into people's hearts, but that is another topic).
   
   And that is the definition which I grew up with which is:
   
   
3. This type of knock down is when a gust of wind hits your boat and overpowers the rudder and you sudenly heel quite a lot and turn into the wind and sails flap, people go "eek". It is usually sudden and that is what makes it scary. Then the gust passes and the boat stands up and things return to normal. In 34 years sailing this boat of ours we have had a few of this type of knock downs, although I don't recall any of them, but never type 1 or type 2.

The problem is that when people get back to the dock and they tell the avid listeners that they had a "knock down" it was really type 3, but the listeners imagine it was type 1.

As to barnakiel's point, keep your decks clear and your cabin properly stowed and the knockdowns you have (if you ever get to experience one) won't be any big deal.

And to choose a catamaran because monohulls have knockdowns and sink, well that's not a very valid criteria for choosing a boat, I think. There are bigger worrys when going cruising.

Just a comment, here.

To me, wingssail's #3 is a broach or a round up. A knockdown, to me means, mast in the water; but that is not enough to cause a mast failure, in my somewhat limited experience. The seas can roll you down, the wind could heel you right over in a microburst. Durina a broach (or roundup), the boat is definitely out of control for a while! Because the boat IS out of control, it is better when this happens without some other boat being in the way.

Had a roundup like that once, where the leeward side got so far under water that I floated up off the deck, and held onto a stanchion till the roundup finished. The saltwater that got into my sea boots made them damp forever more!

***********

Someone wrote a ways down thread that monohulls heave to often. They certainly could, but I believe heaving to to be rare. I think it was a more common tactic when the boats were smaller, and slower, and passages took longer, with weather forecasting limited to a couple of days in advance. There is a tendency these days for most people to not go out if wind strength will be over 20 knots. These same people think 6 foot seas are big.

************

One thing I have seen often here in Australia, where there are a lot of catamarans in Queensland, is that they utilize different sailing plans than we do. For example, for an off the wind trip, we pretty much sail the rhumb line course, and we set the sails to do that. They like to gybe downwind, reaching up for boat speed. So, they sail faster than we, but also they sail further than we. We sometimes arrive before they do, even though their average speed for the journey is higher.

If it is a close hauled course, in light airs, they usually are not pointing as high as we do, and we probably have less wetted area, too. So again, they will sail farther to get to the same destination. These are simply comments on differences.

But the thing to me, for the person new to sailing to realize, is that most commonly, the people who like catamarans or trimarans or monohulls, like them passionately for their own reasons. And I think we should all have space for other folks to enjoy what they like without feeling the need to denigrate the others' choices.

Ann

[Don C L]

What I worry about in a knockdown is getting thrown out of the boat!, and then, as long as I have my harness on, getting thrown back aboard, as she pops back up, without injury (to me!)

Newbies might also turn on one of the weather apps that show you the wind directions and speeds across areas like... the whole Pacific Ocean... and you can see how it got its name! There were quite a few days last summer when the California coast had stronger winds that just about anywhere else (in the northern hemisphere,) including the higher latitudes! If you wanted to experience scary weather you had to come to our fair state!

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Don C L

What I worry about in a knockdown is getting thrown out of the boat!, and then, as long as I have my harness on, getting thrown back aboard, as she pops back up, without injury (to me!)



Newbies might also turn on one of the weather apps that show you the wind directions and speeds across areas like... the whole Pacific Ocean... and you can see how it got its name! There were quite a few days last summer when the California coast had stronger winds that just about anywhere else (in the northern hemisphere,) including the higher latitudes! If you wanted to experience scary weather you had to come to our fair state!

Well, it was named by Ferdinand Magellan with the memory of the winter storms that chased them down the Atlantic, then after battling through the (now) Straights of Magellan, he looked west at open ocean in front of them on a calm day and called it pacific - ‘calm’.

Hah.

North Pacific is nasty for most of the year. South Pacific has roaring, furious and screaming (or shrieking) bands of latitudes, and there are many areas of generally nasty conditions in both hemispheres.

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

typical catamaran inversions we read about don't happen in such catastrophic events, but rather in more moderate conditions where sudden increments in wind speed have caused the capsize. And this, I think, is what influences folks to worry about cat inversions: the requirement to maintain a higher degree of awareness whilst cruising, even under fairly normal conditions. On most monohulls a cleated mainsheet isn't a worry!

Jim

Good insight here. I choose a mono now for a lot of reasons and could also see choosing a cat down the road. I would want a more performance oriented cat, probably with daggerboards to enjoy light air sailing. And that sudden squall increase in wind is the scariest to me. It’s what flipped an Atlantic 57 that I happened to day sail on once- it is a fantastic boat. apparently a sudden night time squall in pretty routine offshore conditions with a very experienced crew flipped it before they could react. In a mono you’d maybe shred some sails and broach at worst

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by smj

That was just the impression I got from events like the Queens birthday storm or the 79 Fastnet where numerous monohulls suffered 360 degree rollovers, some more than one and no catamarans flipped...

SMJ, I just want to pointout that in the Queen's Birthday storm in 1994 35 boats were caught. 9 were disabled or lost, of which 7 were monohulls, two were catamarans. I know of one other catamaran which was in that storm and survived. I'm not sure how many of the other 25 boats were monohulls and how many were catamarans, but I think that a majority of the monohulled boats survivied. As far as I know 2 of the three catamarans did not.

Of the monohulls which were lost most were rolled (not all) and none of those were sunk. All the crew of those boats were taken off their boats, after being rolled or pitchpolled, before the boats sunk, if they did sink. Some were found floating later.

Some very good friends of ours were rolled in thier 36ft Herreshoff ketch in that storm. The boat survivied and they continued the voyage to Tonga. Other friends of ours withstood the storm in thier full keeled cruising boat without significant damage.

We, ourselves, encountered a similar storm in the same waters six years later, and this storm I wrote about in a story titled "Nightmare Off New Zealand". The monohulls and the multihull boats fared equally considering that, as in the Queen's Birthday storm, that there were far fewer multihulls out there.

So I just want to say that it is not fair to use the Queen's Birthday storm as an example of how multihull boats do better in storms than monohulls. As for percentage of survivors? I think the evidence is neutral.

[daletournier]

I haven't read the whole thread.

For me the Op's question shows a lack of experience, no insult intended, I thought similar prior to getting out there. All boats have pros and cons , intended use also comes into the decision making process.

For me it comes down to the most "boat for my buck" taking in to account intended use as stated above.

Here in Australia my Catalina 470 on the used market has a similar price tag as a good condition 38ft Peter Snell easy (ply wood cat) low 200's ,Imho there is just no comparison, the only advantage I see the Easy having is shallow draft AND in reality draft is rarely an issue.

Would I go around the world in an Easy , no way, I just wouldn't, it's just not in the same league as the Catalina 470.

I'm not knocking Easy's or Peter Snell's design, I'm just using it as a comparative cat based on price. You'll pay more for a Lagoon 38 here in Oz than you would for my C470, and once again IMHO theres no contest.

If I could purchase a nice Schioning or Outreamer of comparative size for the same price I would of BUT tbe price difference is quite large.

Value for money, bag for bug, that's what its about for me.

Regarding speed, I think the cat speed thing is very over exaggerated (theres exceptions) the average cruising cat is not faster than a decent modern mono, I've seen this often during ocean passages.

[river251]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Do you ever hear of cats heaving to so as to get rest, cook food, or go to the head? No! But it seems to be routine for some monos. Go figure.

I think you are saying that heaving to is an attempt to control/reduce motion so those things can be done, and that a cat doesn't have that motion that needs to be reduce so doesn't have to heave to to permit those activities, but I've read in other threads that heaving to also serves the purpose of letting you sleep, which I assume means the boat stops progressing or traveling for the most part. What does a cat do to let you sleep? Assuming single-handed. Just put the sails down and drift? Or reef and let the autopilot take over and keep sailing?

Thanks.

[Yihang]

Originally Posted by river251

I think you are saying that heaving to is an attempt to control/reduce motion so those things can be done, and that a cat doesn't have that motion that needs to be reduce so doesn't have to heave to to permit those activities, but I've read in other threads that heaving to also serves the purpose of letting you sleep, which I assume means the boat stops progressing or traveling for the most part. What does a cat do to let you sleep? Assuming single-handed. Just put the sails down and drift? Or reef and let the autopilot take over and keep sailing?

Thanks.

There is a great book called Catamarans: The Complete Guide for Cruising Sailors.

Heaving to in a catamaran is probably the last thing you want to do it with no one on watch. Still better than drifting though.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by river251

I think you are saying that heaving to is an attempt to control/reduce motion so those things can be done, and that a cat doesn't have that motion that needs to be reduce so doesn't have to heave to to permit those activities, but I've read in other threads that heaving to also serves the purpose of letting you sleep, which I assume means the boat stops progressing or traveling for the most part. ...

Yes, some sailors of monohulls report that they heave to so as to be able to sleep and to do other activities that otherwise excessive boat motion prevents. That would stop most forward progress during that time.

Originally Posted by river251

... What does a cat do to let you sleep? ...

I haven’t ever heard of a cat crew that hove to so as to be able to sleep or to do other activities that aren’t possible while the boat is sailing. Slowing down or changing angle to the waves is generally all that is needed for most cats to settle things down enough to be comfortable.

Originally Posted by river251

... Assuming single-handed. Just put the sails down and drift? ...

That’s the same as asking whether crews (not just single handers) anchor overnight so as to be able to sleep during passages. Neither anchoring nor heaving to nor drifting are common, or even uncommon, practices to enable sleeping when crossing oceans.

Originally Posted by river251

... Or reef and let the autopilot take over and keep sailing?

Thanks.

Bingo.

Not necessarily with extra reefing, but sometimes in unsettled weather.

Typically a single hander would sleep in 2-3 hour intervals, not for a whole night. There are lots of single handers on CF and that could be an interesting survey: “how long and often do you sleep during ocean passages?”.

Even full crews, when cruising, will use their autopilot all the time.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Yes, some sailors of monohulls report that they heave to so as to be able to sleep and to do other activities that otherwise excessive boat motion prevents. That would stop most forward progress during that time.



I haven’t ever heard of a cat crew that hove to so as to be able to sleep or to do other activities that aren’t possible while the boat is sailing. Slowing down or changing angle to the waves is generally all that is needed for most cats to settle things down enough to be comfortable.



That’s the same as asking whether crews (not just single handers) anchor overnight so as to be able to sleep during passages. Neither anchoring nor heaving to nor drifting are common, or even uncommon, practices to enable sleeping when crossing oceans.



Bingo.

Not necessarily with extra reefing, but sometimes in unsettled weather.

Typically a single hander would sleep in 2-3 hour intervals, not for a whole night. There are lots of single handers on CF and that could be an interesting survey: “how long and often do you sleep during ocean passages?”.

Even full crews, when cruising, will use their autopilot all the time.

Whats an auto pilot I and many monos use windvanes.