Why do you guys like monohulls so much?

[TheLuckyone]

I can't say that I have any interest in cats. I'm rebel enough in my club; the one sailboat out of many powerboats. The only cat I've seen (bigger than a Hobie 16') was a poorly homebuilt liveaboard, looking like something out of a sci-fi film, and sank before the year was out.

That said... I'm happy with my 50 year old 26' brick s#$%house of a Westerly Centaur. She's got enough headroom, enough amenities, just enough space for a guy to get by. A simple boat for a simple man. I might change my mind by the time I'm ready to go full time cruising with it, but she's enough boat for me now... and why go looking for more?

[Don C L]

I love my little monohull, but if I could afford it and had a place for it... Newick Trice III OSTAR... hope my boat didn't hear that...
maybe if I started a GoFundMe?

[outbound_308]

Comparing an Outremer 55 to any production cat just isn't the same so once again as someone else stated as all mono's are not equal, neither are all cats. In my eye you really have one of the best cats out there, but that's just my opinion.

It does seem to be an on going argument of weight among couples on cat's. Even ones in the 40-45' range. The husbands want to keep them light because the sailing is so much better and the wives want the amenities....to the point of some wanting scales to weigh what is brought aboard.

As a solo sailor I would love all of the outdoor space but think the other hull would be wasted as I don't entertain often. I would rather have the beautiful joinery in a Oyster, Hylas, HR for the space that I use. But that just personal preference.

[Yihang]

This reminds me of what elon musk says about first principals thinking vs with analogies.

"The normal way we conduct our lives is we reason by analogy," he said. "[With analogy] we are doing this because it's like something else that was done, or it is like what other people are doing. [With first principles] you boil things down to the most fundamental truths … and then reason up from there."


Honestly I don't understand why some people are so polarized. I would love to have a wooden spirit 54 to go show off in the med, a boreal 44 to go explore the arctic, an outremer to bum around the pacific and a corsair tri to explore the bays and lakes.

But definitely not a contessa 26 so I can survive the perfect storm, not have a keel bolt fail, rudder fall off or prop damaged.

[Morph]

So many opinions and so many variables that it pretty much makes no sense. There is no universal 'cat', There are the roomarans, the Lagoons, FP, etc that have heaps of room and can barely sail to save themselves--although like Impi, some have sailed huge distances in full on weather. Then there are the more performance cats, Outremer et al, that sail incredibly well in a huge range of conditions. My take is that if a cat does not have daggerboards it's sailing performance is pretty crap... and deeply unsatisfying. I agree with the mono guys, sailing is all about feel, that is while I very carefully built my steering system with cables. Then of course you have the out and out racing boats with the pros sailing them and well--that's the equivalent of Formula 1 racing.
So pick the boat you like that suits your pocket--most of us won't be sailing around high latitudes (how many steel boats are built to do this and never get out of the harbour...?) for me, I love the speed, the pointing ability and the shallow draft to get into small bays in my 39' Pescott cat. Yes I'm a bit limited to what I carry, but I like a simple boat (we even had outboards rather than diesels) and I'm happy with the trade off--I lived on her for a year and our upwind speed dropped from 10 knots to 8 with all the crap of living on board (including desktop computer)

And for the person who said they can't sail off a lee shore... The very first thing I did when I put my rig on was to find the worst weather (35-45 knots 5-6m seas and took her out to see if she could beat off it... three reefs in the main and a partially rolled up genoa and we were doing 8 knots hard on the wind pounding into those waves--not comfortable but gave me great confidence--and we're a light boat-->4 tonne at that point.

However I doubt very much that a Leopard, Lagoon or FP could do that--its a bit like comparing the reversing ability of a long keeled yacht to a fin keeler....



And just for fun, this video of a TS5 in the 2019 ARC--check out at the 3 minute mark the Pilates class going on mid atlantic... oh and they beat a fully crewed Volvo 65...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hz5qw9lZP1g

[Lazy1]

So every example is skewed in one manner or another based on many objective and subjective ideas.


Politics, Religion, Coke/Pepsi, Ford/Chevy, Liqueur/Marijuana

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Morph

...And just for fun, this video of a TS5 in the 2019 ARC--check out at the 3 minute mark the Pilates class going on mid atlantic... oh and they beat a fully crewed Volvo 65...

Actually Morph, this doesn't tell me a thing.

On one hand we have a 2019 designed ultralight catamaran, worth some where north of a million dolars, with pro sailors aboard, which if you are rich enough, is a very nice ride.

VS:

An 8 year old used Volvo 65 racer, probably sailed by family or friends of the owner, which, if you want, can go around the world without a multi-million dollar budget.

Which is faster across the Atlantic? No surprise, the carbon catamaran.

Which is faster across the Southern Ocean? We won't know because this catamaran won't ever go there and if it did, it is not likely to arrive at the finish and anyhow, the owners wouldn't be aboard, because thier attention span isn't that long.

That's my cynical take on this video.

If you want to see real catamarn cruisers, check out FXYKTY, not these folks.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

The boats involved that were rolled were IOR raceboats. That rule penalized stability, and the designs were deliberately destabilized in order to improve their rating to speed ratios with little thought about ultimate survivability in harsh conditions. This is a far cry from cruising boat design, and again IIRC some more conventional designs survived that race quite well...

Not arguing with you at all Jim, but I want to mention that some friends of mine were sailing La Pantera, which I know very well and have sailed on myself, and a sister ship to Wings, in that race, and they related to me that they, out of ignorance, were unaware of the chaos and devastation going on during the race, and just kept racing and pushing for more speed. They finished without problems.

It has given me confidence in my own boat.

[Cool Hand Luke]

This is why:

https://app.jeanneau.com/static/medi...60eb8fa9cd.mp4

And, this is also why:

https://app.jeanneau.com/static/medi...625748fb82.mp4

And, also this:

https://app.jeanneau.com/static/medi...b43ac78556.mp4

And, of course, this:

https://app.jeanneau.com/static/medi...d7a81fd16c.mp4

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Not arguing with you at all Jim, but I want to mention that some friends of mine were sailing La Pantera, which I know very well and have sailed on myself, and a sister ship to Wings, in that race, and they related to me that they, out of ignorance, were unaware of the chaos and devastation going on during the race, and just kept racing and pushing for more speed. They finished without problems.

It has given me confidence in my own boat.

That makes sense to me, Fred. Wings herself has given you a lot of safe miles, and you seem to have the IOR issues licked.

I do remember in the aftermath of the Fastnet that the faster boats stayed ahead of the worst of the wx.* IIRC it was the mid to late part of the fleet that copped the worst wx, and the smaller IOR boats didn't fare well. Again IIRC, some of the more mundane racer/cruisers, perhaps a Nic 35 or such just reefed down and carried on slowly, and finished without significant damage. The hairy-chested press on regardless chaps had less luck...

*Ted Turner's Tenacious was one, I think...

And do remember that our first Insatiable was a 1973 design IOR one tonner,** and we managed >86,000 cruising miles in her... never sank once, had one mast in the water knockdown but generally handled our agenda pretty well. Lots of folks said she wasn't suitable for cruising... I bet you've heard that song before too!

**That was the very early days of IOR, long before the rule changes and interpretations that led to the poor stability curves of later versions.

Jim

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Lots of folks said she wasn't suitable for cruising... I bet you've heard that song before too!...

Yeah, heard it again today. He said I was crazy to have cruised around the world on our boat. He said it as I was tuning a rig and explaining to him why it was important to have one's mast in column. He said, "Millimeters don't matter."

Ya have to consider the source.

[Cliffhanger]

Firstly there is no such thing as a perfect boat. I've sailed monos my whole life but bought a cat a few years ago. This boat also isn't perfect but suits me and where I sail better than any other boat I've owned.

You keep hearing about "Bridgedeck slap" as if it is the worst thing in the world. Seriously, you get used to it just as quickly as you get used to not leaving your drink on the table (on a mono). Just different, that is all.

What is important is an honest look at how you use your boat. If I was circumnavigating or spending a lot of time in big seas I would probably have a mono. But that won't happen any time soon. I mostly sail on weekends around a shallow, protected bay and I estimate my boat spends 80% of the time at anchor.

[Morph]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Actually Morph, this doesn't tell me a thing.

On one hand we have a 2019 designed ultralight catamaran, worth some where north of a million dolars, with pro sailors aboard, which if you are rich enough, is a very nice ride.

VS:

An 8 year old used Volvo 65 racer, probably sailed by family or friends of the owner, which, if you want, can go around the world without a multi-million dollar budget.

Which is faster across the Atlantic? No surprise, the carbon catamaran.

Which is faster across the Southern Ocean? We won't know because this catamaran won't ever go there and if it did, it is not likely to arrive at the finish and anyhow, the owners wouldn't be aboard, because thier attention span isn't that long.

That's my cynical take on this video.

If you want to see real catamarn cruisers, check out FXYKTY, not these folks.

Hmm, Ok couple of corrections there. Firstly, the cat had 4 crew, the owner, his wife and two friends--by the look of them they were not in the "pro crew" category... mostly being over 60 and really in need of those pilates classes...
Second the boat is no more pricey than an Outremer and thirdly, where did you get your information about the crew of the Volvo?--my understanding was that it was a pretty good crew.... I am ready to stand corrected...


I have no idea of whether they intend to sail in the Southern ocean, however a transatlantic is not a bad start. Plenty of cats do go around the Souther ocean and surprisingly... they all seem to make it--even those out and out racing cats and tris that race around the world in 40-50 days, their course, also, including the Southern Ocean.


Like the boat you like, I like my type of boat, you like yours. But please don't make statements with nothing behind them!

[john manning]

Originally Posted by Jammer

1. Higher overall cost profile
   1. Used market is much tighter
   2. New prices are higher due to cost of manufacture
   3. Because of the wide beam, there are fewer low-cost choices for slips and haulout
   4. Cost of maintaining two engines and saildrives
2. In practice, upwind performance is slightly worse
   1. When comparing performance cruiser monos, to performance cruiser cats, as typically outfittted.
   2. Adds to the risk posed by lee shores
3. They aren't as seaworthy.
   1. Odds of hitting something or catching a line are doubled by the twin hulls.
   2. They are more highly engineered, and engineering failures are occurring at greater rates than with monos
      1. Inversions due to undiscovered holes in the stability envelope
      2. Emergency hatch leaks
      3. Structural failures
   3. They are more susceptible to serious damage when a collision does occur
      1. By example, e.g. the family that hit a fish trap in the Med
      2. Due to reliance on saildrives (in nearly all cases), with attendant line-trap and collision risks.
   4. Generally not able to motor on one engine, therefore, twice the risk of a problems from engine failure.
4. There is some slamming on the waves in heavy seas.
   1. Due to the bridge deck hitting the water.
   2. Alarming to the uninitiated. Undermines the advantage of being friendly to non-sailors
5. Limited weight carrying ability
   1. Limits tankage
   2. Limits ability to carry dive gear and compressors
   3. Leads to tradeoffs regarding emergency equipment and spares
   4. Undermines some of the benefit of the extra space
6. Wider beam limits where they can go in some cases
   1. Some notable, historic inland rivers and canals
      1. Broads bridges
      2. Canal du midi
   2. Reduced availability of slips particularly in the USA

I disagree with most of your criticisms of cats.
Cost. By waterline length cats are more expensive. By internal volume they are similar to monos.
Upwind performance depends upon how the sails are rigged not whether it is on a cat or a mono. My cat (Prout Escale) sails better upwind than the Roberts PCF40 mono I owned before.
They are not as seaworthy. My Prout Escale is the best rough water hull I have ever been in. The range includes ships up to 68metres and a wide range of monos.
Limited tankage. I have 1400 nm range with my fuel tanks. More if motor sailing.
I motor well on one engine.

Having said all that, the only reason I keep my cat instead of buying a monohull to replace it, is the rough weather seaworthiness of the Prout. I prefer monos.

[Yihang]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Actually Morph, this doesn't tell me a thing.

On one hand we have a 2019 designed ultralight catamaran, worth some where north of a million dolars, with pro sailors aboard, which if you are rich enough, is a very nice ride.

VS:

An 8 year old used Volvo 65 racer, probably sailed by family or friends of the owner, which, if you want, can go around the world without a multi-million dollar budget.

Which is faster across the Atlantic? No surprise, the carbon catamaran.

Which is faster across the Southern Ocean? We won't know because this catamaran won't ever go there and if it did, it is not likely to arrive at the finish and anyhow, the owners wouldn't be aboard, because thier attention span isn't that long.

That's my cynical take on this video.

If you want to see real catamarn cruisers, check out FXYKTY, not these folks.

Actually has anyone heard of a production-ish cat doing the classic RTW through the southern capes route? Would love to read about it.

Is Jimmy Cornell going to be the first? Great publicity for Outremer again when he is done with it.

A lot of people were saying his ovni would stay turtle up because it doesn't have a fixed deep keel. He said he always run ahead of a storm instead of slowing down and it has worked all these years.