Why do you guys like monohulls so much?

[Sirzones]

Yep it’s absolutely the cost haha

[chrisr]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Windvane vs Auto pilot.

We have a light, fast, and simple boat.

We've chosen a windvane for several reasons. Complexity, Reliability, Power usage, Cost and Weight

Complexity.
Autopilots have several components, electronic and electrical, and often hydraulic, with pumps and cylinders. This is more stuff to keep operational. Windvanes are simple, no wiring or electronic components to fail. We like to keep out boat simple, less to repair, less to worry about.

Reliability.
As we've cruised the world's oceans almost everyone we meet with an autopilot has had a failure. If they don't carry a spare they wind up hand steering, sometimes for days. So carrying a spare autopilot is fairly common. We do have an autopilot, a simple tiller pilot, and we carry a spare, and we have needed it. The need for reliability in self steering is essential for us.

Power usage.
Even though the power is "very little" it adds up. 3 amps for 24 hours is 75 amp hours, or 900 watts. That 75 amp hours adds 50% to our present daily usage. To replace that with solar we'd need an additional 150 watts of panel. Where to put it? And the panel is heavy as well.

Weight.
Two complete heavy duty autopilot systems will often weigh more than the windvane. Weight costs us speed. We like a fast boat.

Cost
A good autopilot which can steer in heavy winds and big waves isn't cheap, and the need to have a spare makes it more expensive.

The windvane just sits back there silently working away mile after mile, year after year. So, for us, dedicated monohull folks, a windvane is the right answer.

i appreciate that in your opinion & experience that seems reasonable, however i'd like to offer some alternative views ;

Complexity.
you seem to be confusing hydraulic steering with autopilot. as most cats already have hydraulic steering, this is a non-issue. our autopilot consists of a small self-installed box (the brain) and a small pump
windvanes on the other hand appear to consist of a maze of wires / ropes / pivot points / hinges...all waiting to jamb / fail...usually at 3am on a dark & stormy night...

Reliability.
we have met just as many boats whos windvane has failed as autopilots. in fact we constantly meet boats where the windvane is permantly out of use, but never met a boat that does not have a well used autopilot. let's just agree that everything on a boat is constantly failing - even if we don't yet know it

Power usage.
as i said, for a cat - with usually large solar array - this is just not an issue. it may be for you

Weight.
sorry but must disagree. a windvane must weigh in the order of 50kg (in the worst possible place...) whereas an autopilot weight maybe 10kg tops

Cost
again, must disagree. a state of the art autopilot will set you back abt A$3000. a quick price check gives an Aries windvane as 5000 euro - plus installation !. to my mind that makes the windvane a lot more expensive

once upon a time the windvane may have been the right choice...but very few folk see it that way these days

cheers,

[malbert73]

Ugh- do most cats really have hydraulic steering? I guess there’s not much helm feel to lose anyway? I know Lagoon 450 has cables from watching YouTube rebuilding of one

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by malbert73

Ugh- do most cats really have hydraulic steering? I guess there’s not much helm feel to lose anyway? I know Lagoon 450 has cables from watching YouTube rebuilding of one

Some do, but many catamarans Do Not have hydraulic steering.

As you said even some Lagoons are cable systems.

And more performance orientated catamarans are now generally spectra rope from the helm to the rudder, even if they have forward mounted helms.

Some catamarans, particularly Catana brand, make a point of twin helms, aft and outboard, for better all round sailing use (trim, view, etc) as well as a shorter more direct connection to the rudders.

Outremer offer the option of a helm station forward with a wheel, and tillers and a bucket seat aft.

Of course the trade off is then shelter compared to a bulkhead helm station (as it's called on Cats) in under the cockpit hard top.

Kind of like twin wheels aft on a mono, vs a solid dodger/pilot house with a helm station forward.



PS: for people that are not familiar with Cats it might be interesting to check out the articulating 'Versa Helm' which is now available from several manufacturers, creating an up/down or inboard/outboard helm station.

Here are a couple of different implementations. It's a pretty cool idea that provides a lot of flexibility regardless of single or twin helms or bulkhead or aft steering positions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKCZhx23ZNM&t=40s

Outremer, Tillers + Wheel:



Bulkhead Wheel, Aft Tiller, and Bucket Seat in between:

[loneshark64]

Originally Posted by Taichungman

Since I deal in reality, I would choose a mono hull strictly because of the the original cost and up keep that I could afford. My first two boats were multi's but I have crewed for over 20 years on both mono's and multi's. I would rather crew on a multi strictly because of the more comfortable motion it provides for an older sailor. Comfortable at 18kts plus many times on last crew from Cape Town to Annapolis Md. on 50' St. Francis.
I am planning on getting another boat and it will be an older mono; it will be less expensive to buy, maintain, haul out and berth.


18kts somewhere between St. Lucia and the Bahamas.

I agree, I like both cats and monohulls, but prefer a monohull. I like sailing upwind, and I like the feeling of heeling and trimming sails to respond to it. That is sailing for me. That’s what a yacht is.

I have a 35 footer and I never really hang around on the boat at the dock drinking cocktails; when we go to the boat we either work on it or go out. A 35’ Beneteau is more than enough interior and cockpit space for us , and it is easy to maneuver and get in and out of slips and moorings. It turns on a dime and backs really well. I don’t have to manage two hulls, two engines, etc. and the boat cost like half as much. Easy call.

The cats are faster and sometimes on my boat I wish it could do more than 7kts and sometimes the heel is too much for people, but on balance I would not buy a cat.

[Jim Cate]

Cost
again, must disagree. a state of the art autopilot will set you back abt A$3000. a quick price check gives an Aries windvane as 5000 euro - plus installation !. to my mind that makes the windvane a lot more expensive

Chris, while I agree with much of your treatise, I had a quick look at B&G's price list and to me it looks like a not top of the line system can easily go 6-8 k plus some sensors (wind instrument) on top of that. The real top systems are far more expensive than that. Even the "inexpensive" CourseMaster for a boat our (or Wingsail's) size is around 4200 AUD, plus the needed sensors and installation in addition (not inconsiderable if hired out, just like the windvane).

I would posit that a serious cruiser might well have both a good below deck a/p plus a windvane. I'd sure like one... it's something I miss on this boat!

Jim

[smj]

We have 2 autopilots, a TP32 tillerpilot that cost us about $400 and a CPT wheelpilot that was $1800. Cant see spending 6-8k?

[newhaul]

Building your own wind vane is actually quite easy .

I have Walt Murray's vane stuff in a zip format .
Pm me your emails and I will forward a copy to all who wish it .

Here are a couple of shots of them .

[chrisr]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Chris, while I agree with much of your treatise, I had a quick look at B&G's price list and to me it looks like a not top of the line system can easily go 6-8 k plus some sensors (wind instrument) on top of that. The real top systems are far more expensive than that. Even the "inexpensive" CourseMaster for a boat our (or Wingsail's) size is around 4200 AUD, plus the needed sensors and installation in addition (not inconsiderable if hired out, just like the windvane).

I would posit that a serious cruiser might well have both a good below deck a/p plus a windvane. I'd sure like one... it's something I miss on this boat!

Jim

thanks jim

no doubt there are more expensive ones around however we have raymarine and very happy with it

https://www.theboatwarehouse.com.au/...EaAi78EALw_wcB
https://chsmith.com.au/Products/Raym...QaAllfEALw_wcB

this includes the fluxgate compass sensor. guess i'm assuming that everyone who wants an autopilot already has wind instruments (maybe fair assumption / maybe not ?)

this compares pretty well with 5000 euro + for a wind vane !
https://ariesvanegear.com/products/aries-wind-vane/

cheers,

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by chrisr

thanks jim

no doubt there are more expensive ones around however we have raymarine and very happy with it

https://www.theboatwarehouse.com.au/...EaAi78EALw_wcB
https://chsmith.com.au/Products/Raym...QaAllfEALw_wcB

this includes the fluxgate compass sensor. guess i'm assuming that everyone who wants an autopilot already has wind instruments (maybe fair assumption / maybe not ?)

this compares pretty well with 5000 euro + for a wind vane !
https://ariesvanegear.com/products/aries-wind-vane/

cheers,

Actually the windvane for the autopilot does similar to what the real wind vane steering does just using power to do it

[Jim Cate]

Building your own wind vane is actually quite easy .

That was not my experience at all. It was a hell of a lot of work in the design process, a hell of a lot of work in construction, and then a hell of a lot of work getting it to work right.

But when it finally came right and began to steer the boat competently, that was one of the most gratifying experiences of my whole life!

Jim

[Tupaia]

AP's and Wind vanes and steering on cats.


The primary reason WV's don't work on faster cats, apart from any obstructions caused by bridge deck cabins is the large changes in apparent wind angle because of the rapid acceleration and deceleration. AP's typically track the wind, by converting the wind angle to a compass bearing and provided this stays within the off course parameters will work but not in all conditions for the same reason. Most will sail sweeping curves as the speed increases and decreases.


It is not because cats have large solar arrays that they are able to support the power draw it is because cats don't heel so there is virtually no lee helm or weather helm for the AP to fight. Assuming you have balanced the sails in the first instance. Less effort less power required. My own hydraulic pilot runs at about 1 amp/hour.


For the same reason especially if the cat has semi balanced rudders there is virtually no helm "feel" that monohull sailors seem to crave. It matters not if the steering is cable of hydraulic. Tillers may give the impression of more feel but it is really down the fact that they are direct, lacking any friction or resistance. Tillers work best on smaller cats because the boat will be more reactive. In fact larger cats should have their AP's set up similarly to long keel monohulls as they tend to maintain a straight course (on rails) so an over reactive AP will just use power for no good reason.


Once over a certain size performance cats are sailed on the numbers. An AP is far better than a human in such circumstances and because of the lack of rolling or heeling sail trim is far more important than on a monohull.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

That was not my experience at all. It was a hell of a lot of work in the design process, a hell of a lot of work in construction, and then a hell of a lot of work getting it to work right.

But when it finally came right and began to steer the boat competently, that was one of the most gratifying experiences of my whole life!

Jim

Ah Jim, at least all your hard work was not in Vane!

[Jim Cate]

^^^^^

No, it was not, but I must always fight Vane-ity and not brag too much.

Jim

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by loneshark64

The cats are faster and sometimes on my boat I wish it could do more than 7kts and sometimes the heel is too much for people, but on balance I would not buy a cat.

Disagree- many production cats (condo cat type) are actually not faster in most light and moderate air conditions- except big breeze particularly off the wind. I sail by 40+ condo cats all the time and think they are pretty “sticky” in the water unless it’s blowing 15+
So ideal for trade winds etc.
Performance cats- different altogether