Why do you guys like monohulls so much?

[smj]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Well, smj, you're right about my sailing speeds definately not coming close to wind speeds.



Actually I never claimed that. That is a topic more often discussed by multihull folks. The truth is, my boat is not particularly fast, despite being a "racing boat". Get the breeze up, and set a reaching course, and the multi's blow by me. But it is an old IOR boat designed to a rule which didn't encourage really fast boats. But they are pretty good all around boats and sort of fast, and good at all wind angles. And they are great for racing.



But the thing about racing boats is that they really are made for racing, and that means being good for much more than shear speed on a reach. The other thing, and this pertains to all boats when racing, (unless they are one design), is the handicapping rules which adjust out the inherant speed differences. So a Balance 56, or your TRT1200 which by all measures, are really fast on a 63TWA reach, have to give time to my old IOR houseboat.



So we can race together.



Now we'll come down to the heart of the matter: Upwind and downwind. We've raced against quite a few multis, from folding Farrier 40 trimarans to bigger, performance Catamarans. On the reaches they scream away. To windward they suck. Downwind they do better but still suck because they need to reach so high.



Maybe you've never been passed by a "sailors boat" but I've never been beaten by a multi in a race with a decent windward leg, and I don't just mean under handicap. I mean elapsed time. So I'd love to see you show up at one of our windward leeward races. It would be fun.



Further, we want to live aboard. Everything we own is here. 14 sails, tools, spare parts, and all of our household belongings, plus food, drink, and fuel and water for an extended time. And we still beat the multi's.



So, there are certainly many faster boats than ours, (and there are windsurfers which are faster than all of us and can blow your cat away) but for our needs, our monohull, which can make great time in any direction and ANY SEA AND WIND STATE) and we can live aboard and race, is what works for us. Doesn't mean it is superior, just means it's right for us.



PS



And I agree totally with Chotu's comments pertaining to the "land based" nomonclature on a Multi:

Yet in post 842 you claim to be able to sail windspeed in 6kts of wind? Now not? I’m confused. And why put down a catamaran cruising at windspeed on autopilot (not racing)as basically being uninteresting?
I’m not a racer, probably not even a good sailor but the previous owner took pride in out pointing and outpacing the J boat fleet, not sure how that would compare to your boat in a race but to me pretty impressive. And doesn’t the PHRF ratings account for all points of sail including upwind and down? Can you compete with a -24 PHRF rating? If so you may be able to compete with our cat.
As I said before, we are overloaded and the captain (me) is an idiot, but we’ve never been passed by a monohull......but I’m not saying it won’t happen, actually surprised it hasn’t.[emoji23]

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by wingssail

As to your observation: I can guarantee that in 6 knots of true wind, on a close reach, we could attain 6 knots of boat speed. Finding proof of that in our log would take some time (the wind and speed data are not searchable). But here is an example: On Feb 24, 2021 at 15:52 we logged 6-7 knots of boat speed in 5-6 knots of wind...

I must admit to being both confused too, as well as surprised.

It seems like your boat will actually sail at windspeed +15% ?
(7kn boatspeed in 6kn of wind)

Or is that maybe just because on a monohull the weight will allow the boat to coast even after the wind has dropped?

And as @smj mentioned, what's not to like about a catamaran having the capability of cruising at windspeed on autopilot in 6kn of wind? I think that's great

Wouldn't most people like to be able to do that, instead of motoring... ?

Confusion all round I guess

[Whokickamoocow]

I've only once cracked sailing at windspeed once on a mono and that was in sea trials, 6kn in 6 knots of breeze in dead flat water in the Bay of Biscay. After that it remained too elusive.
I have driven past J-122's and Bene first 40's with ease, but they've done the same to me in the light.
I've never passed a racing cat, and rarely has one passed me. Mostly because they are always in a different fleet and start time. Casual cruising, we'll do just fine against most cruising pickleforks we encounter.
So what can we glean from all this? It's horses for course. They're all good, just different.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by smj

Yet in post 842 you claim to be able to sail windspeed in 6kts of wind? Now not? I’m confused. And why put down a catamaran cruising at windspeed on autopilot (not racing)as basically being uninteresting?... And doesn’t the PHRF ratings account for all points of sail including upwind and down? Can you compete with a -24 PHRF rating?...

Originally Posted by jmh2002

I must admit to being both confused too, as well as surprised.
It seems like your boat will actually sail at windspeed +15% ?
(7kn boatspeed in 6kn of wind)…

You guys should not get confused over this. I said that I have sailed at these speeds. I didn’t make a general claim to be able to sail at windspeed.

The polars for my boat show 5.56kt in 6kts wind and 6.79kt in 8kts wind, (TWA 110deg). IMS, ORR, and my own VPP show that we should be able to do that and somewhat more. IMS for example shows 6.53kts in 6 knots of wind). We can, and have sailed at 6+ knots in 5-7 knots of wind I think I can show GPX tracks from OpenCPN, and I certainly have it recorded in my log book.

But that is a specific case and in no other wind ranges can we achieve that. We’re good in light air.

Claiming in general to be able to sail at windspeed is something a bit different and I don’t say that.

And yes, if smj’s PHRF is -24 I am sure his boat is faster. I would still be willing to race against them; we might lose, which is OK, but we have beaten boats with similar ratings before (on handicap), as recently as this March.

But mainly my point is: no catamarans have showed up to race against us in 38 years that beat us to windward. I’m not saying that they can’t do it, they just don’t.

And I’m not putting down the catamaran cruising 6 knots in 6 knots of wind on autopilot, I’m just saying it is about as interesting as riding a bus.

[smj]

Originally Posted by wingssail

You guys should not get confused over this. I said that I have sailed at these speeds. I didn’t make a general claim to be able to sail at windspeed.



The polars for my boat show 5.56kt in 6kts wind and 6.79kt in 8kts wind, (TWA 110deg). IMS, ORR, and my own VPP show that we should be able to do that and somewhat more. IMS for example shows 6.53kts in 6 knots of wind). We can, and have sailed at 6+ knots in 5-7 knots of wind I think I can show GPX tracks from OpenCPN, and I certainly have it recorded in my log book.



But that is a specific case and in no other wind ranges can we achieve that. We’re good in light air.



Claiming in general to be able to sail at windspeed is something a bit different and I don’t say that.



And yes, if smj’s PHRF is -24 I am sure his boat is faster. I would still be willing to race against them; we might lose, which is OK, but we have beaten boats with similar ratings before (on handicap), as recently as this March.



But mainly my point is: no catamarans have showed up to race against us in 38 years that beat us to windward. I’m not saying that they can’t do it, they just don’t.



And I’m not putting down the catamaran cruising 6 knots in 6 knots of wind on autopilot, I’m just saying it is about as interesting as riding a bus.

I’m not a racer so when you say beating a boat on handicap, does that mean you beat them on paper and not boat to boat?
I’m guessing your 10x the sailor that I am and I respect that. We were just lucky to be able to pick up a great sailing boat in need of some work for a great price! Sometimes I feel I should take some lessons from a racer to do justice to the boat.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by smj

I’m not a racer so when you say beating a boat on handicap, does that mean you beat them on paper and not boat to boat?
I’m guessing your 10x the sailor that I am and I respect that. We were just lucky to be able to pick up a great sailing boat in need of some work for a great price! Sometimes I feel I should take some lessons from a racer to do justice to the boat.

Yes, unless it is one design racing all racing is based on a rating system, otherwise the biggest boat would always win. So you might get across the finish line 10 minutes ahead of me but since I am 72 and you are -24, you owe us 96 seconds a mile. In a 10 mile race that's 16 minutes. I beat you by 6 minutes.

Unless it is an upwind race. Then I might get to the finish closer, or even ahead of you (in my dreams).

If I had your boat I'd race the heck out of it. Get a few friends, and maybe one person who knows racing, and just do it. Be sure to go to the yacht club afterwards and rub elbows with the other racers. In a year you will pick up an amazing amount of knowlege, both on the course and in the clubhouse. But you'll drop a bit of cash too (mostly on drinks).

10x the sailor? I doubt that.

[Hoodsail]

Originally Posted by smj

I’ve never been passed by the “sailors” boat, never. I’ve always passed the “sailors” boat, always. Now when I do pass y’all you look like your having a ball, heeled over hanging on the high side…….just looks like a ton of work for going that slow.
Don’t get me wrong, at some point in the future I may get passed by a “sailors” boat, but then again our cat is overloaded and captained by a complete idiot. Which brings up the point of why I’ve never been passed by a “sailors” boat……

You remind me of my powerboat friends....they've watched me raise, trim, lower sails and then hear me exclaiming how I am beside my self when my chartplotter hits 6.5 knots! Their comment, .... wow, that's seems like alot of work for less than 25 knots! And the lo side is where the action is....can sight down the slot between my main & gennie, telltales flying...and get my hand wet if I'm really lucky!

[smj]

Originally Posted by Hoodsail

You remind me of my powerboat friends....they've watched me raise, trim, lower sails and then hear me exclaiming how I am beside my self when my chartplotter hits 6.5 knots! Their comment, .... wow, that's seems like alot of work for less than 25 knots! And the lo side is where the action is....can sight down the slot between my main & gennie, telltales flying...and get my hand wet if I'm really lucky!

I started sailing monohulls then switched to catamarans 30 years ago. I love the feeling of being in the groove on a monohull but I also love the instant acceleration I get with a catamaran.
My post wasn’t to denigrate the sailing of monohulls, it was a rebuttal to the poster that considered only monohulls as a sailors boat. I personally can appreciate both mono and multi sailing but at this point in life I still enjoy catamarans.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by smj

I started sailing monohulls then switched to catamarans 30 years ago. I love the feeling of being in the groove on a monohull but I also love the instant acceleration I get with a catamaran.
My post wasn’t to denigrate the sailing of monohulls, it was a rebuttal to the poster that considered only monohulls as a sailors boat. I personally can appreciate both mono and multi sailing but at this point in life I still enjoy catamarans.

I chose a large 65 ft Mono pilothouse because as a live aboard I wanted the space and when shopping in 2001, not much choice in Multis, that I could afford.

I am curious about the owner of a modern cruising Multis in the 46 to 56 ft range. They have an amazing amount of storage space.

When I look at the Zatara videos, they seem to fill it all up for a family of 5 or 6. I am not a minimalist, but all that space seems just too tempting to pile things on and I wonder how much that weight compromises design performance.

Given the Lagoon structural bulkhead issues discovered recently, would that not also be an added concern, if hulls became overloaded due to massive storage space?

Lastly, those who know both...
What would you say would be the comparable length of a cruising multi, to equate storage space with a 65ft mono?

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

I chose a large 65 ft Mono pilothouse because as a live aboard I wanted the space and when shopping in 2001, not much choice in Multis, that I could afford.

I am curious about the owner of a modern cruising Multis in the 46 to 56 ft range. They have an amazing amount of storage space.

When I look at the Zatara videos, they seem to fill it all up for a family of 5 or 6. I am not a minimalist, but all that space seems just too tempting to pile things on and I wonder how much that weight compromises design performance.

Given the Lagoon structural bulkhead issues discovered recently, would that not also be an added concern, if hulls became overloaded due to massive storage space?

Lastly, those who know both...
What would you say would be the comparable length of a cruising multi, to equate storage space with a 65ft mono?

Here's an episode of sailing nahoa where they decide to lighten up a bit .
Gives some insight .

https://youtu.be/mDJKvueIJy8

[Whokickamoocow]

Because there is a visceral feel to sailing a mono that I don't get sailing a cat. Some of the more modern cat designs seem hellbent on removing you from the elements completely.

[Master56]

For me it is because when I go sailing I want to feel like I'm sailing. Unless I am on a twitchy racing multi, sailing a multi feels a bit like a day out on the water. However, I once owned a Crowther Twiggy Trimaran and it was a lot of fun, probably because it sailed more like a monohull.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

I chose a large 65 ft Mono pilothouse because as a live aboard I wanted the space and when shopping in 2001, not much choice in Multis, that I could afford.

I am curious about the owner of a modern cruising Multis in the 46 to 56 ft range. They have an amazing amount of storage space.

When I look at the Zatara videos, they seem to fill it all up for a family of 5 or 6. I am not a minimalist, but all that space seems just too tempting to pile things on and I wonder how much that weight compromises design performance.

Given the Lagoon structural bulkhead issues discovered recently, would that not also be an added concern, if hulls became overloaded due to massive storage space?

Lastly, those who know both...
What would you say would be the comparable length of a cruising multi, to equate storage space with a 65ft mono?

I couldn’t answer your questions as I can’t afford a 46-56’ catamaran, wouldn’t buy a Lagoon and have no idea what storage space there is on a 65’ monohull.
We live very simply and comfortably on a 40’ performance oriented catamaran and don’t need all the extra storage space and “necessities” some consider essential to happiness.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Lastly, those who know both...
What would you say would be the comparable length of a cruising multi, to equate storage space with a 65ft mono?

It's not just about length, it's about the type of multihull.

Just like your monohull is a very high volume boat for it's size, the same is true of catamarans - they come in all shapes and sizes too, even for cruising.

A very simple example would be to look at Zatara that you mentioned. That Privilege 585 is a VERY high volume boat that still retains some sailing ability - you will still be motoring a lot more at lower windspeeds but it's not to the extreme of some cruising catamarans now that are almost a motor boat with a mast and can barely sail at all.

But for example something you would very like about the Privilege 585 is it has 2 HUGE lazerettes, with full standing headroom, room for the gensets (most have 2 mains and 2 gensets, although that could be better optimised these days with more modern equipment). You really see how tall and how high volume the hulls are (which is all added drag of course, either in the water or the air).

Here's a lazerette tour, starting at 7mins:
https://youtu.be/wplNMpyrHY4?t=410

To better understand the performance difference (from both sides) watch these 2 videos of the same passage, with Zatara and The Sailing Family from Fiji to Australia.

The Sailing family have an Outremer 51 and ignoring the length difference it's easy to see how much less volume the boat has (look up an Outremer 5X to see a 60ft version, it won't seem much bigger to you, all these types of performance cruising boats have long narrow knife like bows which reduce usable volume significantly - but the peformance is in a whole different league.

However whether or not you can use all that performance on ocean passages will (and does) vary greatly depending on the crew and the situation.

Here's those 2 comparison videos from 2 opposing points of view (neither are wrong, both families have a different situation and use their boats differently):

Zatara - SAIL AWAY FROM THE MADNESS!! / Performance Catamaran vs Expedition Cat (Ep 141): https://youtu.be/Z76kBBwHci8

The Sailing Family - Fiji to Oz: Which boat would you want to be on?!: https://youtu.be/P1cJKdcBx-s

If you ever consider a change to a catamaran, and want both similar volume to what you have now AND good sailing performance, then you will probably want to look at something similar in size to your existing boat.

That way you will have the volume but it will be spread out over this longer length. In simple terms that is the way to get both volume and performance in a catamaran.

I think I even mentioned to you a couple of high 50ft to low 60ft boats in another thread, that are in an older age bracket now so are (relatively) cheaper, but still good boats, with a lot of space, but that will just eat miles effortlessly on ocean passages. See my post here for the Lagoon 67S for sale to give you an idea of what I mean: https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3521750

There are other boats from that era that are big, have good volume, will eat miles, and are no longer million dollar boats by virtue of their age. Boats like the Lagoon 55, 57, 67 and 67S, and similar boats from other manufacturers of the same era, when they still made good quality yachts, and before they started turning out rubbish. And pretty much any of the older larger Privileges would be suitable for you too.

From what you have written in various threads about your boat and the mindset behind it I couldn't really see you being happy on the average 45ft cruising cat.

Hope that helps

[donradcliffe]

Maybe things are different elsewhere, but Cats just haven't caught on on my home port of Santa Cruz. Excepting Beach cats and A Cats, there are only half a dozen cats in the harbor, and on a given day there will be more than 10 mono's out sailing for every cat.

We have Wed nite beer can races in the summer, for bragging rights with no handicaps. The only cats near the front have been A cats and a 24 footer which was owned and sailed by two pro sailers . The 24 footer only competed in serious racing on a couple of occasions when I overrode my safety concerns to encourage participation on the basis that the were experts. They stopped racing after a season , partly because the boat was scary overpowered.
We are next door to silicon Valley, so there is no shortage of money, but all our raceboats are mono's over 20 years old So we just don't have the experience of cats with windows and beds blasting by mono's. You all are welcome to drop by and show us.