Yacht size around here on hook

[TJ D]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

I started a thread once about "what is a complex boat". Somewhere in that thread there was post on just about any system/item on a boat, so in that thread almost all boats at "complex". But it seemed the dividing line was whether you had refrigeration or not.

I dunno. The first liveaboard cruising I did was with my dad in 1989.90. Back then, most boats didn't have refrigeration, or if they did, they probably didn't keep it running for very long unless they were pretty expert at fixing it. We certainly had our battles with the fridge on that old rig.

Fast forward to the modern day. We had a Glacier bay system that worked perfectly for 3 years, and according to the PO, it was perfect from 2010 until we bought the boat in '13. I replaced one control module in this time, about 3 hours' work.

It finally got wonky before we left the US, so we stuck in a SeaFrost system, and while I think that the freezer truly sucks on this particular brand (not for reliability reasons, but because they use 134a that won't get colder than 0 at the plate, 20 in the box), and it has run around the clock for 14 months. I expect that it will last many years.

My previous boat's fridge required zero maintenance for 7 years. Ditto the one before that. The two previous boats had ordinary danfoss 12v systems, one a 'cold machine', the other a homemade setup using danfoss parts and an evaporator of unknown origin.

So, where's the complexity? I've lived aboard full time for 21 years, and have so far invested about 3 hours into the working on the refrigeration-total, and have only replaced one system.

This point carries over into lots of other systems that the KISS crowd (of which I generally am one)are in general opposition to. Think electric winches, windlasses, autopilots, furlers, pressure water, inverters, the list goes on and on. We have all this stuff on our boat, and have had for 20 years, and the failures have been really infrequent. We sail a lot of miles, too.

Just one dude's view.

Late edit: I just remembered that I did have to replace the brain on the Danfoss compressor on the previous boat. Make that 5 hours maintenance in 21 years...

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I've commented on this before.
General Aviation as in four passenger aircraft died long ago, people that used to buy them, can't any longer.
However Corporate Jet deliveries has been ever increasing for years, the biggest, most expensive jet there is, has a back log years long.

Many boat manufacturers of 30 and 40 ish boats have disappeared, however deliveries of Super Yachts are at an all time high I read the other day.

I see it as the " one percenters" are increasing their wealth, others not so much.

But meanwhile the mass production yards are cranking out every greater numbers of cruising boats, and I think the price has actually fallen adjusted for inflation. My Dad's last cruising boat was 37 feet and 10 tons -- the average mass produced 45 footer is also 10 tons. Cost is almost a linear function of displacement, comparing method of construction like for like. I think cruising boats have simply gotten to be more voluminous without being heavier or more expensive -- natural rationalization of the designs.

It looks to me like the remaining 99 percenters are not buying fewer cruising boats, or paying more for them.

[TJ D]

You back in your winter berth, Dockhead? We're in Portimao, will press a bit into the Med for the winter ourselves.

It's HOT down here!

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by TJ D

I dunno. The first liveaboard cruising I did was with my dad in 1989.90. Back then, most boats didn't have refrigeration, or if they did, they probably didn't keep it running for very long unless they were pretty expert at fixing it. We certainly had our battles with the fridge on that old rig.

Fast forward to the modern day. We had a Glacier bay system that worked perfectly for 3 years, and according to the PO, it was perfect from 2010 until we bought the boat in '13. I replaced one control module in this time, about 3 hours' work.

It finally got wonky before we left the US, so we stuck in a SeaFrost system, and while I think that the freezer truly sucks on this particular brand (not for reliability reasons, but because they use 134a that won't get colder than 0 at the plate, 20 in the box), and it has run around the clock for 14 months. I expect that it will last many years.

My previous boat's fridge required zero maintenance for 7 years. Ditto the one before that. The two previous boats had ordinary danfoss 12v systems, one a 'cold machine', the other a homemade setup using danfoss parts and an evaporator of unknown origin.

So, where's the complexity? I've lived aboard full time for 21 years, and have so far invested about 3 hours into the working on the refrigeration-total, and have only replaced one system.

This point carries over into lots of other systems that the KISS crowd (of which I generally am one)are in general opposition to. Think electric winches, windlasses, autopilots, furlers, pressure water, inverters, the list goes on and on. We have all this stuff on our boat, and have had for 20 years, and the failures have been really infrequent. We sail a lot of miles, too.

Just one dude's view.

Late edit: I just remembered that I did have to replace the brain on the Danfoss compressor on the previous boat. Make that 5 hours maintenance in 21 years...

Again, ditto.

The domestic systems are not a big maintenance job. My refrigeration, two separate Isotherm SP units, is now 16 years old, and has never had any maintenance or repairs except a shot of Freon once in a while due to the typical crappy couplers on these cheap systems.

Washing machine is also 16 years old and is used intensively. Once a bolt was shaken out of it from inside. Another time a multi-contact switch burned one contact. That's the total of problems.

Had to replace a pressure water pump once.

Gray water pumps need diaphragms once every few years, if anyone pours bleach down the drains (that's now banned on my boat). The pumps themselves are 16 years old and still going strong (I keep two rebuild kits and one entire spare pump in reserve though).

Had to replace one calorifier.

Eberspacher hydronic heat is fairly troublesome, needing professional attention every couple of years, and sometimes costing some money.

Gas system is fairly troublesome -- solenoids, regulators, wiring -- one or another of these needing replacement or fiddling almost every year.

Had to replace a blown up battery charger once.

Marine toilets need attention from time to time, but I've been fairly lucky with mine the last few years.

Generator is a whole machine in itself, and needs the same maintenance as the main engine. But it's not a big deal to service two diesel engines compared to servicing one. It has broken on rare occasions -- a bad heat exchanger due to operator error; a loose plate on the fuel pump which caused an air leak; a wiring problem to the fuel pump -- what's that, three minor problems? All repaired by self using tools I had on board? In 16 years and 2000 hours?

The domestic systems on board a large, comfortable cruising boat are not more troublesome than the systems in a house. And how really could they be less? And why is it less worthwhile to have them on a boat you live on or spend months at a time on, than in a house?


As to the deck gear -- I have four electric winches (out of 10 total) which you might not need on a smaller boat. 16 years old and never a problem with them. Strip them and lubricate them periodically like any other winches. Electric windlass needed a new motor and gearbox once (in 16 tears) because of rust (could have been prevented with better maintenance). But you'd need a pretty small boat not to need a powered windlass.


As TJ said, the one real killer expense on bigger boats is the cost of sails. New sails for my boat cost more than my first house did.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Windward9999

I have asked the same question, and the sales guy said to me" you can take it over 240 months (20 years)".

I started to laugh ( I think not), then he said" ya and the sad part is over 90% only pay the minimum payment, so the first 5 years your just paying interest.

Explains why some people are asking a lot for old boats.

People may be asking a lot for older boats.... but they aren't getting it. When boats get older than 25 years, the price drops like a rock, to where you'd have trouble giving away something from the 60's and 70's.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by TJ D

You back in your winter berth, Dockhead? We're in Portimao, will press a bit into the Med for the winter ourselves.

It's HOT down here!

Just arrived yesterday! 3000 miles after setting off in May. It's lovely to be back in Cowes and in the Solent. I hope to do more sailing this fall than last -- maybe run across the Channel to St. Vaast for the oysters. Come visit if you're in the neighborhood.

[TJ D]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

People may be asking a lot for older boats.... but they aren't getting it. When boats get older than 25 years, the price drops like a rock, to where you'd have trouble giving away something from the 60's and 70's.

Crap, my boat's 21. I'd better sell it, quick! Anybody want a boat??

[TJ D]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Just arrived yesterday! 3000 miles after setting off in May. It's lovely to be back in Cowes and in the Solent. I hope to do more sailing this fall than last -- maybe run across the Channel to St. Vaast for the oysters. Come visit if you're in the neighborhood.

Welcome home. We're going to give the Med a season or two and see how well we like it. No plans beyond that. I'd like to go to Norway before we leave Europe, though. We'll see.

Anyway, we'll be in the general area for a while yet. We'll probably cross paths again.

[Tellie]

Why bigger, fancier, and more complicated? Simple, once the Jones bought a boat the rush to keep up exploded.

[SV Bacchus]

Originally Posted by Tellie

Why bigger, fancier, and more complicated? Simple, once the Jones bought a boat the rush to keep up exploded.

Hey Tellie,

I've been chasing the Jones' for years, never caught them yet! I gave up some years ago and life became so much simpler..

But I have to agree with your comment as many out there ARE still chasing the Jones'.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

As to the deck gear -- I have four electric winches (out of 10 total) which you might not need on a smaller boat. 16 years old and never a problem with them. As TJ said, the one real killer expense on bigger boats is the cost of sails. New sails for my boat cost more than my first house did.

I think I have paid more for roof repairs during the last 16 years so maintenance of a yacht can certainly be comparable or less than living in a house.

However, as mentioned the cost of new sails for big yachts is just scary.

Pete

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Pete7

I think I have paid more for roof repairs during the last 16 years so maintenance of a yacht can certainly be comparable or less than living in a house.

However, as mentioned the cost of new sails for big yachts is just scary.

Pete

Not if you shop around.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Not if you shop around.

Yes I suppose scary is subjective, my new main was £800 for a 31 ft yacht. You could probably add a zero to that for a large yacht main in a decent quality.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Yes I suppose scary is subjective, my new main was £800 for a 31 ft yacht. You could probably add a zero to that for a large yacht main in a decent quality.

The numbers that get tossed around on the internet are far from realalistic. Our DYS tri radial cut roller furling main with Sailcoat and vertical batons from a top shelf UK sailmaker (made in the UK) cost $8,000 delivered from the UK to Italy. Nowhere near £8,000, and it'll last us at least 10 years.

Like I wrote... It pays to shop around, and.... don't believe all the bull poop you read on the internet.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Like I wrote... It pays to shop around, and.... don't believe all the bull poop you read on the internet.

Thanks, I will try to remember that advice as I surf the internet.

So £6100 for your main sail, a bit of extrapolation suggests then a 58ft yacht main will be the price of my main, with an extra zero. As I was saying



Pete