Yet another tragic loss?

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by hpeer

Which is why I suggested a separate thread.

+1!

barnakiel

[Polux]

Originally Posted by hpeer

Well it does seem the whole keel discussion is not relevant to this case so I'll let it be.

It's a very sad tale. Not entirely sure what lessons are to be learned, perhaps more about operating procedures and storm tactics.

...

There is a very clear lesson to be learned: if things go nasty stay away from the shore and don't try to make an entrance on a port with shallow waters and a dificult entrance.

Most of the death of sailors on the Portugal coast have to do with sailors trying to entry ports on bad conditions. Sometimes from a distance it looks doable but there is always a risk, a bit like the Russian roulette: On most cases you will get away....but it is worth to try it?

[Polux]

Originally Posted by hoppy

Given the popularity of Bavaria's in charter markets, I'm pretty sure it's safe to say that their keel's generally don't fall off when hitting a rock or similar a 7 knots. The repair bill afterwards, I don't know, but I'm betting stronger built boats may only require an inspection and an anti fouling touch up whilst weaker may require some engineering work.

That is VERY different to a yacht being picked up by a wave and thrown sideways onto the rocks.

Bavaria are a bit better than Oceanis and Jeanneau in what regards a keel repair. Contrary to the other two they don't use an integral matrix fully bonded to the hull but a grid. That makes easier to see the damage and also to repair it.




A friend of mine hit recently a rock at high speed with is recent 40ft Beneteau Oceanis. The keel did not fell off he could sail the boat safely to the shipyard for repair but the cost of repair was 20 000 euros. On an old boat probably it will be around the value of the boat....and the main problem is that some may not repair the boat properly try to sell it with an insufficient structure repair and then we will be hearing talks about another mass production boat that lost the keel....

[Polux]

Originally Posted by hpeer

IIRC .... And I'm pretty sure I do.... You made a lot of similar claims last and were put right the .

To be polite it is far fetched to say a lot of steel and aluminum bulls are bolted on. I believe when you said that before you eventually qualified that you were talking about ocean racers. I've looked at a fair number of steel and aluminum boats and more plans and have never come across a bolted keel.

I suggest you go back and reread that thread before making more statements.

I bet you have only looked to old metal boat plans. Even the ones available on the net for sale are old plans. For a new one you have to pay much more to a NA.

Last summer, not far away from me there was a 55ft steel boat and they were mounting the keel, a bolted one. No it was not a racer (a steel racer) but a cruising boat.

As I said bolted and welded, if well built offer advantages and disadvantages. Not different then any other structural suspended engineering work subjected to big efforts, like suspended bridges for instance.

One of the advantages of welding over bolting is price. it is cheaper to use welding over bolting. On both ways the quality of the design and building is the responsible for the strength of the union, not the method in itself.

[Polux]

On topic...the best article of the accident, published by the German magazine Yacht de. (translated):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHjxBFiDQYw

".... the exact course of the accident is still unclear. According to Italian media reports, investigations are concentrating on the cause of the failure of the engine, which last Tuesday left Bavaria out of control when trying to enter marina Rimini. It had been capsized in the surf before the entrance to of harbor, and pushed by the waves to the mole. Four of the six Italian crew members on board were killed.

Puzzles about engine failure

The Italian coast guard apparently assumes that the engine has failed just before reaching the mole. The assumption is that the diesel was contaminated in the tanks of the twelve-year-old yacht or that there was water on the tank.

Carlo Calvelli, one of the two survivors, said in an interview with the Italian newspaper "Il Resto del Carlino" that Alessandro Fabbri, the skipper during the disaster (died in the accident), the 67-year-old Italian doctor had decided to leave the Ravenna to Sicily, despite the bad weather forecast. The conditions they found, with Bora from Northeast with up to 40 knots wind speed took them to decide to try to enter the port of Rimini, about 30 nautical miles south of Ravenna.

Fatal decision

The wavebreaker, which is located in front of the Marina Rimini - an L-shaped stone mole - makes the control in case of a strong north-east wind and the passing sea very demanding: wind and waves push towards the marina and the moles and create a dangerous situation, Especially for non-manoeuvrable yachts.

In the interview, Calvelli said the waves were coming from the aft and were about three meters high. The machine had failed exactly the moment they wanted to pass the difficult break zone of the mole. The attempts to start them again failed. If it had happened earlier, the crew would have had time to put a sail, so Calvelli. If it were only a minute later, they would have passed the difficult spot. But the yacht was thrown on the stones. The sailor says it was like a "racing car without a brake" and that he had been flushed on board.

Calvelli's description is at odds with other media reports, which show that the two survivors were below deck. It is also reported that a wave has entered the yacht, whereupon the engine should have failed....."

After this grim accident, something positive, a French RM twin keel that was pounded by waves for 3 days and managed to be rescued even if obviously there is damage on the boat. The five crew is alright.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5U8PlCd9nXc

The boat was on a paid mooring buoy and got lose due to chafe on the mooring rope.

[Snowpetrel]

A good friend had a fairly long fin keel, fully welded on a steel hull ripped off when the boat went ashore on rocks. I have also seen some pretty nasty cracks developing in the integral keel structure of an aluminium boat.

I have also seen fatigue cracks at the rear hull keel junction of an integral welded steel hull and keel. So integral welded keels are not at all immune from issues.

As keels get higher aspect, with smaller roots the structural issues get bigger. I think this is the real reasons for more problems.

[double u]

yeah, sure! only when there are cracks in the welded steel-structure the Bav is already matchsticks!

[barnakiel]

The accident similar to the one when a US flagged boat tried to enter Horta (discussed at the CF some time back). Engine cut out (sheet in the prop) and they ended on the starblocks of the entrance. That one was luckier though.

b.

[Polux]

When rocks are hit at speed lots of damage can happen and in very different type of boats and each case is a case depending on many variables. At the shipyard were my boat was the owner told me a funny story that ended up well about a well known sailor with a super voyage boat made of aluminium, a very expensive boat, not a production one.

The owner thought that the boat was unsinkable, probably because it had watertight bulkheads but changed ideas when almost went down after hitting hard a rock (his fault). He called for help and they suggest him to ground the boat on a beach. He went full speed but barely made it, with the boat taking a lot more water than what he was able to pump out.

The boat was a twin keel and he lost almost all the ballast on one of the keels. Maybe better two than just one LOL.


Also in what regards losing keels to be a thing that has to do with new production boats, namely after groundings at speed, they are not the only ones. Look here a obviously very expensive old boat (a Swan?) losing its keel after hitting rocks hard at the Kornati archipelago in Croatia.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfEeuiGtE7k

[double u]

comments:
1. pretty sure it's not a swan & I don't see the indication for it to have been "very expensive"
2. the keelstructure was many times as strong as on the Bav: look at the vid's end: the whole sump was torn out & the patch of hull torn out with the keel was much larger than on the Bav