15M Catamaran Capsize off Portugal

[PaulBartomioli]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Here is one that was caught on camera

https://youtu.be/mxojo8pPpvI

Here's another post dismast

https://youtu.be/82CkA427n2g

The most recent case you cite is 2 years old. Truthfully, I would rather be dismasted than capsized or knocked down

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by smj

Cool, you’ve produced 2 videos of catamarans losing masts in benign conditions, probably due to lack of maintenance, same would happen to any design boat.

You didn't specify how they were dismasted.

BTW my dad was dismasted in the late 1990's in Texas on an irwin 27 in rather benign conditions . The final investigation found the cause to be a damaged chain plate from a lightening strike 8 years prior .

It can happen to any boat at any time .

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by PaulBartomioli

The most recent case you cite is 2 years old. Truthfully, I would rather be dismasted than capsized or knocked down

No those were just from a 30 second YouTube search

[smj]

Originally Posted by newhaul

You didn't specify how they were dismasted.



BTW my dad was dismasted in the late 1990's in Texas on an irwin 27 in rather benign conditions . The final investigation found the cause to be a damaged chain plate from a lightening strike 8 years prior .



It can happen to any boat at any time .

Yes, my exact point, you can’t label all catamarans as being unseaworthy because a few lost their mast from lack of maintenance or defective parts. If that was the case all monohulls would be unseaworthy because a few lost their thru hulls while tied to the dock.

[Palarran]

Originally Posted by hpeer

Mention of reverse hows reminded me of a brand new cat that was lost some years ago. IIRC It was built in Long Island, NY and was making a maiden voyage south when caught in a gale.

It was a futuristic look with an almost all glass house. When they found the hull the glass house was gone.

Anyway it had reverse bows and I THINK it suffered steering failure that led to abandonment.

Not sure if this incident is of any interest to this crowd.

Sorry I don't recall name or manufacture.

Originally Posted by Yihang

Alpha 42



https://wavetrain.net/2014/01/17/hel...g-be-good-too/

I'm guessing that it was Rainmaker. Gunboat. It's carbon fiber mast broke when it stuffed a wave.

The Alpha lost its rudders when it was shoved backwards while the crew were messing around inside I think. Which is pretty common I guess.

[smj]

Originally Posted by PaulBartomioli

Reefing and Racing Catamaran are oxymorons. The pros sail in weather 99% of people would not even consider. And you do not address the issue of it being MUCH lighter in weight. No galley, no saloon, no heads. Stripped down is not even close.

So the type catamaran your discussing has nothing to do with this thread. The catamaran in this thread is a racer/cruiser, had 2 reefs in the main and living space probably comparable to a 70’ monohull.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Palarran

I'm guessing that it was Rainmaker. Gunboat. It's carbon fiber mast broke when it stuffed a wave.



The Alpha lost its rudders when it was shoved backwards while the crew were messing around inside I think. Which is pretty common I guess.

This is Rainmaker after 14 months adrift, yes still floating.

This is Rainmaker after having been rebuilt as a power cat.

Absolutely amazing!

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by PaulBartomioli

Reefing and Racing Catamaran are oxymorons. The pros sail in weather 99% of people would not even consider. And you do not address the issue of it being MUCH lighter in weight. No galley, no saloon, no heads. Stripped down is not even close.

Paul, Gunboats, Marsaudons,Atlantic 57's all have galleys, saloons, heads, berths, etc. They are marketed a fast cruising catamarans.

Most of these capsizes have occured in moderate conditions.

In my view the problem is the light weight of the actual boat itself. They can be blown over.

[smj]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Paul, Gunboats, Marsaudons,Atlantic 57's all have galleys, saloons, heads, berths, etc. They are marketed a fast cruising catamarans.

Most of these capsizes have occured in moderate conditions.

In my view the problem is the light weight of the actual boat itself. They can be blown over.

The TS5 capsize was in moderate conditions but supposedly hit a UFO.
There was a Gunboat G4 that capsized, but it’s a foiling cat so that was meant to be at some point.
The A57 Leopard is said to have been capsized in a waterspout.
The A57 Anna was capsized in a violent squall.
And there was a A42 that also capsized in a violent squall on the Great Lakes.
It appears none of the Atlantic’s capsized in moderate conditions.

[PaulBartomioli]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Paul, Gunboats, Marsaudons,Atlantic 57's all have galleys, saloons, heads, berths, etc. They are marketed a fast cruising catamarans.

Most of these capsizes have occured in moderate conditions.

In my view the problem is the light weight of the actual boat itself. They can be blown over.

Right. Simple physics. The length of the lever (mast/sail height) explains how. Racing catamaran or "fast" commercial cats all sacrifice weight for speed.

[lestersails]

Wonder if the daggerboard on the port hull is retracted or was sheared off?

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by smj

Yes, my exact point, you can’t label all catamarans as being unseaworthy because a few lost their mast from lack of maintenance or defective parts. If that was the case all monohulls would be unseaworthy because a few lost their thru hulls while tied to the dock.

I never said cats weren't any good i just said I don't want one I prefer my mono for the motion .
I have never owned a cat but I have owned a couple of trimerans one cruiser 2 decades ago and a Crowther racer/cruiser even posted picture of Crowther.
I just prefer the roll of a monohull.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by smj

Cool, you’ve produced 2 videos of catamarans losing masts in benign conditions, probably due to lack of maintenance, same would happen to any design boat.

The point that you seem to want to argue against is that all cats are unsafe, but nobody is saying that. But in your eagerness to defend cats you shouldn’t try to minimize or obscure the fact that cats don’t heel easily like a mono hull and this causes much more stress on the rig if sail area isn’t proactively reduced as wind speed increases. With a monohull, if you get caught in a squall and almost get knocked down by a big gust, there’s usually no damage and as the boat heels, forces on the rig are reduced while it’s righting moment increases. Even if the mono is heeled to 90 degrees and beyond, it will self right. Granted it takes a very big gust to make a cat get knocked down, but unlike with a monohull that’s a one way ticket. If hit by a big gust on a cat that’s over canvassed, since the cat won’t heel, all of that excess energy must be absorbed by the rig, leading to more failures than on a monohull. Since this is a known factor I’m sure that cat rigs are increased in ruggedness compared to a similarly sized mono, but it’s only practical to overbuild up to a certain point so that threat of overstressing your cats rig is always there. In my mind this isn’t a disqualifying factor but it’s definitely something to keep in mind and be conservative about anytime the possibility of big gusts exists. Then, with greatly increased speeds, there are large dynamic forces that can change suddenly if you hit a wave wrong or your helmsman has a momentary lapse or your autopilot suddenly disconnects . That’s ok with a boat full of professional sailors with one constantly at the helm, but for mom and pop cruiser who tend to spend much of their time under shelter with the autopilot steering the boat, and may not be as on top of reducing sail area as they should be, im not sure a performance cat is such a good thing.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by PaulBartomioli

The most recent case you cite is 2 years old. Truthfully, I would rather be dismasted than capsized or knocked down

I would rather be knocked down . My boat is properly secured so a knockdown will likely cause some broken glasses and a bit of mess below but I will come back up and continue on my way under sail

[Jim Cate]

I doubt if this will change anyone's mind, but...

In monohulls between 22 and 36 feet LOA I have been

Knocked flat with the mast in the water by gusts with a large vertical component... several times in the 22 foot boat.

Knocked down, spinnaker filled with water and pinned for what seemed like an eternity, just off the south tower of the golden gate bridge in the 30 foot boat.

Knocked flat by a combined wave and gust in the Tasman sea in the 36 foot boat.

Dismasted in the 36 foot boat.

But in all these cases, I finished the voyage under my own power (or sail) without need for assistance.

Jim