2 or 3 reef points???

[Cheyne]

Originally Posted by Snore

Clearly this is an option. But ask yourself- when do you rig #3? Only on a 3 day passage? Or a 4?

If you spent the money on the reef, just rig it. Trying to go out on deck in conditions that warrant a third to rig it will be daunting. Once the emotional hurdle of getting out there is overcome, it is physically demanding. Whereas having #3 rigged and ready to go isn’t

Just my semi-humble opinion

I would never try to put the 3rd reef in while sailing. This is an option if we think we may need it on some longer passage in the next couple of years. I would like the option to rig it later.

Cheyne

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Cheyne

I would never try to put the 3rd reef in while sailing. This is an option if we think we may need it on some longer passage in the next couple of years. I would like the option to rig it later.

Cheyne

I've even used a 3rd reef on the Chesapeake twice (cruising cat). Sure, I could have motored, but sailing was smoother and faster, and sailing jib-only is both unbalanced and will result in difficult jib furling (it will likely be blowing 35 knots sustained with higher gusts).


It was not hard. Motor low revs, jib in tight, and pull the lines tight. Although the 3rd was not kept rigged, I suspected the need might arise, so I ran a line through the clew while hoisting with 2 reefs. Common sense.


It was actually reasonable comfortable under the hard top, after everything was trimmed in.

[zstine]

Originally Posted by fxykty

We keep all three reefs rigged all the time (why wouldn’t you?) and use 8mm bare Dyneema as the lines - minimal windage and weight. We use separate clew and tack lines and reef at the mast.
.

Some reasons are...
1) reefing lines chafe the sail and you have to have the stitching re-done every few years where the lines rub. maybe not as often if not sailing as much.
2) all the extra line flapping around means it is more likely to foul or tangle.. not fun when you gybe and a reef line catches or if it just hangs up while raising sail..
3) dynemma is not cheap. Some people do have to think about cost.
4) line management. It's a bunch more line that needs to be kept neat and tidy or risk more tangles.

You should check the weather before you leave port. You should have a very good idea if you may need that 3rd reef before you leave, unless you are doing more than 2 or 3 day passage... then rig the 2nd and 3rd as a precaution.

[tomtriad]

I have a 42' tri, 11,000 lb loaded, 53' wingmast (80 sf), 562 sf main with 50' luff. 1st reef at 8.7', reduces main by 130 sf (23%); 2nd reef at 14.5', reduces main by 220 sf (39%). The 2nd reef brings the head down to the hounds where the forestay and shrouds are shackled and makes the rig bulletproof. I have a 270 sf hanked-on 100% jib which can be reefed 20%, and a dacron storm jib 150 sf which I can hank over the lashed down jib. I take my first reef at 20 knots true, and reef the jib if needed (beating at speed into head seas is not fun); I take my 2nd reef at 25-30 knots and use the storm jib upwind. Over 30, double reefed main alone. I've never tried to/had to sail in 40 + true. Since the boat is very fast, I'm often sailing at 20-40 apparent. 2nd reef on the main with no jib is quite secure in any conditions I've met.

The wing mast serves to depower the main by reverse rotating it, and is a quick way to take off speed and could be considered a 1st reef; I use that plus a backed jib to heave to. I also use it to steer myself on and off a dock when motoring. I suppose it could be considered to be a storm sail off the wind, but it doesn't generate enough lift to reach or beat with it alone. Sometimes I sail with jib alone on a short sail when I don't want to bother with the main, or to get a boost when motoring in the ICW. I've never tried to sail with the small jib alone, but it would work.

My 1st 2 mainsails had 3 reefs, and I tried it once when the boat was new to me, sailing into 25 knot tradewinds with the small jib. I was distinctly underpowered and luckily had enough way on to beat over the bar out of Galleon Bay in St. Martin on the windward side without stalling. I never used it again. I have hardware for 3 reefs in my boom but I use only two. I have a chase line rigged for the 3rd, but no 3rd reef points on the main.

[tomtriad]

I don't want to complicate your decision making progress, however, there are other considerations in designing a mainsail for a wingmast besides the number and location of the reef points. I hope your sailmaker is aware of the need for a very flat sail to use with a wingmast, particularly if it has no prebend in it (the likely scenario). My main has only a 4% chord, and the luff is absolutely straight. If it's built with a 7 or 8% chord as is the norm for non wing-masted mohohulls it will be too deep and won't trim correctly, overpowering you in high wind and underpowering in light. This is of paramount importance, as well as shape retention which you won't get with traditional woven Dacron. I'd be happy to discuss the fine points with you if you like, as I'm currently having a new main built and have been around the loft a few times, so to speak.

The original main was of dacron built by Dave Berig; the 2nd of Bainbridge Spectra, built by North; the 3rd of Dimension Polyant Flex 24 by Doyle - this had by far the best shape and best performance being cut very flat; 4th, currently being built of Dimension Polyant SXI by Zoom similar design as #3.

PM me if you're interested in discussing the fine points of wingmast sail design.

[mikereed100]

Our cat originally had 3 reef-points. I found that the first did not really reduce sail much as a percentage of total sail area, especially when the head-sail was factored in. Usually we ended up tucking in the second reef soon after the first. When we had a new mainsail built I specified the first reef quite deep, closer to the previous second reef but not quite as deep. The second reef is where the old third reef would have been. This has worked out very well as we end up having to futz with the mainsail a lot less, which is huge for a short handed crew. The elimination of one of three clew lines has been a bonus as well.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by zstine

Some reasons are...
1) reefing lines chafe the sail and you have to have the stitching re-done every few years where the lines rub. maybe not as often if not sailing as much.

Uncovered Dyneema is very slippery - rubbing is not an issue.

Originally Posted by zstine

2) all the extra line flapping around means it is more likely to foul or tangle.. not fun when you gybe and a reef line catches or if it just hangs up while raising sail..

The only time the reefing lines flap is on dropping the main, otherwise they are reasonably taught. We have learnt to be very careful with them when dropping the main on starboard tack - we once did foul the wind generator with loose reef lines. Line management is a standard seamanship practice.

Originally Posted by zstine

3) dynemma is not cheap. Some people do have to think about cost.

I think about cost very carefully. The Dyneema lines are cheaper than the equivalent strength double braid polyester that was there before. I don’t buy lines from chandleries - that really helps to cut line costs. And I do my own splicing and covering.

Originally Posted by zstine

4) line management. It's a bunch more line that needs to be kept neat and tidy or risk more tangles.

That’s just life with a sailboat. At least we don’t have single line reefing - that would nearly double their lengths.

Originally Posted by zstine

You should check the weather before you leave port. You should have a very good idea if you may need that 3rd reef before you leave, unless you are doing more than 2 or 3 day passage... then rig the 2nd and 3rd as a precaution.

Even coastal cruising it is quite possible to be hit by geographic or cloud gusts. We like the third reef by 35 knots AWS, which with 10+ knots of boat speed doesn’t take all that much wind. YMMV

[Quebramar]

My old main came with 3 reef points as per manufacturer design. So when it came to have it changed, the new was made in a similar way. Beating in 30kts TWS 3rd reef and solent, the boat is perfectly comfortable, well balanced.
The 3 reef points are almost equally spaced, the 1st is a bit lower. A member of the club mentionne that he would not have asked for 3 «*regular*» reefs but rather 2 deep ones and then an additional one.
Since I value balance and safety, I thought the current 3 would be too much canvas in 35TWS or more, so I just ordered a 4th reef to be placed (cost 200€).
With Selden boom there are 2 automatic reefing lines and one semi-automatic (only aft is permanently set through the boom, the front can be set with a separate line going back to the cockpit). I plan to reconfigure and put reefs 2-3-4 and leave the 1st one to be manually set, not much used anyway.
I might not use the 4th reef much but will be glad it is there when needed. Same with the tiny orange storm jib, lying under the forecabin berth. Coastal can bring local accelerated wind on a leeshore…

[aj676]

Originally Posted by tomtriad

I have a 42' tri, 11,000 lb loaded, 53' wingmast (80 sf), 562 sf main with 50' luff. 1st reef at 8.7', reduces main by 130 sf (23%); 2nd reef at 14.5', reduces main by 220 sf (39%). The 2nd reef brings the head down to the hounds where the forestay and shrouds are shackled and makes the rig bulletproof. I have a 270 sf hanked-on 100% jib which can be reefed 20%, and a dacron storm jib 150 sf which I can hank over the lashed down jib. I take my first reef at 20 knots true, and reef the jib if needed (beating at speed into head seas is not fun); I take my 2nd reef at 25-30 knots and use the storm jib upwind. Over 30, double reefed main alone. I've never tried to/had to sail in 40 + true. Since the boat is very fast, I'm often sailing at 20-40 apparent. 2nd reef on the main with no jib is quite secure in any conditions I've met.

The wing mast serves to depower the main by reverse rotating it, and is a quick way to take off speed and could be considered a 1st reef; I use that plus a backed jib to heave to. I also use it to steer myself on and off a dock when motoring. I suppose it could be considered to be a storm sail off the wind, but it doesn't generate enough lift to reach or beat with it alone. Sometimes I sail with jib alone on a short sail when I don't want to bother with the main, or to get a boost when motoring in the ICW. I've never tried to sail with the small jib alone, but it would work.

My 1st 2 mainsails had 3 reefs, and I tried it once when the boat was new to me, sailing into 25 knot tradewinds with the small jib. I was distinctly underpowered and luckily had enough way on to beat over the bar out of Galleon Bay in St. Martin on the windward side without stalling. I never used it again. I have hardware for 3 reefs in my boom but I use only two. I have a chase line rigged for the 3rd, but no 3rd reef points on the main.

This is particularly interesting. We also have a wing mast so the depowering option is something we've wondered about and your heave to procedure is good to know.

We have a friend that is a multi hull designer and engineer so we've run many questions past him. He also suggested that our reef points coincide with the attachments of stays for a "bulletproof" rig.

Thanks for your input!

[aj676]

Originally Posted by tomtriad

I don't want to complicate your decision making progress, however, there are other considerations in designing a mainsail for a wingmast besides the number and location of the reef points. I hope your sailmaker is aware of the need for a very flat sail to use with a wingmast, particularly if it has no prebend in it (the likely scenario). My main has only a 4% chord, and the luff is absolutely straight. If it's built with a 7 or 8% chord as is the norm for non wing-masted mohohulls it will be too deep and won't trim correctly, overpowering you in high wind and underpowering in light. This is of paramount importance, as well as shape retention which you won't get with traditional woven Dacron. I'd be happy to discuss the fine points with you if you like, as I'm currently having a new main built and have been around the loft a few times, so to speak.

The original main was of dacron built by Dave Berig; the 2nd of Bainbridge Spectra, built by North; the 3rd of Dimension Polyant Flex 24 by Doyle - this had by far the best shape and best performance being cut very flat; 4th, currently being built of Dimension Polyant SXI by Zoom similar design as #3.

PM me if you're interested in discussing the fine points of wingmast sail design.

The sailmaker is aware of our whole setup but these are also good points to run past him to make sure all the i's are dotted and t's crossed. Will send PM.

[Cynara]

All these posts are valid. Every boat is different and everyone has a different sailing style.

That is why I say that sailing is more art than science

[wolfring]

I got hit by an unforecasted gale off Hawaii a few years ago. My boat has a boom furling main and I took it down to a very small sliver of main sail. That and my storm stay sail handled 50 knots just fine.
If you plan to do any offshore sailing I would put in the third reef. Seems like a good insurance to me.


Wolfring
S/V Koh-Ring, Tayana 48

[Georgiamarie]

This is probably a stupid question, can’t you just de-power the sail instead of reefing

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Georgiamarie

This is probably a stupid question, can’t you just de-power the sail instead of reefing

De-powering generally means taking shape out of the sail by releasing the leech to spill wind and flattening the sail so that it does not "curve" the wind.

For many boats de-powering works over a small range of wind strengths. A full, powered up sail which works well in 10 knots of wind might be OK in 15-20 if de-powered.

But de-powering leaves up the full area of the sail. It can flog. Instead of a sail shape it becomes a big flag. In higher winds the flogging can become violent and destructive. De-powering works less well on reefed sails since there is less shape that can be taken out.

The OP's query is about 2nd and 3rd reefs. Those are sail sizes appropriate for winds in the 20's and 30's on most boats. Depowering which can help in fresh breezes is not effective in those higher winds.

[wolfring]

Depowering the sail is a good first line of defense in lighter winds. Once you get to wind speeds 20 kt or higher (boat depended) reefing becomes necessary.