2 or 3 reef points???

[Georgiamarie]

Thanks

[KP44]

My sailmaker and a renowned expert told me two reefs and a storm trysail.
I insisted that she build me a mainsail with three reefs. Each reef takes out 50% of the former sail. So the third reef would show 13% of the mainsail plus some windage of the boom.
As seldom as we need a trysail and considering the difficulty of a second sail track and disengaging the main during storm conditions, we decided to have a third reef instead of other storm gear.
I have not needed the third reef but consider this a good decision.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Georgiamarie

This is probably a stupid question, can’t you just de-power the sail instead of reefing

Here is an example of what they are saying as far as reefing not just depowering.

You can see the knot on my mainsheet so the reefed main is about all the way out and I'm still being over driven.

I under estimated the wind and decided to head home on this Sunday morning which is to cross the mouth of the Chesapeake Bay......single handed as usual.

Forecast was for 22 knots but gusts were mid 30's and it was steady near 28 -32 knots. Even after it had laid down some here in the video you can still hear the wind in the rigging.

Video is after about 3 hours and things were starting to lay down a bit. Early near the shipping channels waves were breaking into the cockpit partly because I had to sail at an angle to the wind and waves to be on course and partly due to changes in depth. It was also tide against wind. By the time I did the video I was trying to stay DDW of the waves as best I could and am now closing in on my creek's entrance but it was hard to see too far due to spray I guess from the waves at low level.

I had just reopened the hatch and grabbed my camera also. Early I was holding onto the winch so as not to get washed over board after I replaced the cabin boards. I was lucky that I left the forward hatch close. Since then when winds are up it stays secured.

I have my one reef in and have taken over steering because my auto pilot couldn't handle it with the main up. I should have had the main down and small jib up but by the time I realized that it was too late. I was able to get the jib furled. (a month later the furling line would come out of the drum so I was lucky here) To attempt to go forward then or now to lower the main, the boat would immediately round up into the wind and get knocked over pretty good and I'm not sure if it could have dealt with the close steep waves without something breaking. Also it would be tough to hold on up by the mast and get the main down

As it was it almost did an accidental gybe while I filmed since I got a bit out of sync holding the camera which is why I didn't film very long.

The boat is pushing way too much water and if the wind had come up just a few knots more closer to 40 knots earlier she my have been being driven under the larger waves on approach of the next set.

I am having another set of reef points installed in the next month or so maybe a little higher than the 2nd set would be if they can do that.

Also my dodger frame did get broken during this crossing and the bow lights no longer worked afterward. The bow spent lots of time underwater because what was left up of the main was overdriving the boat.

Not sure what would have happened had this been an extended event offshore. I had run out of water an hour ago. (it was all down below), hadn't eaten breakfast yet, and was tired due to lack of sleep and maybe a touch hung over. Luckily I had Dramamine within reach. I don't usually need Dramamine after the first day and 1/2 a pill if it's rough day one but this day was different

I was also worried about my rigging because I don't know how old it is but it's at least 16 years old but probably more and my tiller seemed a bit loose so I was trying to baby it and not push it too hard suddenly.

Also my creek entrance isn't that wide and I cannot miss it plus the tide is running hard perpendicular across the entrance so I would end up coming in sideways toward the incoming tide side

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nXfjcCuiPk

[thomm225]

Also my boat has a rather low amount of freeboard so it doesn't take much to take a wave over the side.

But she does have a (cutaway) full keel which helps keep her tracking online normally with the right sails up......

[sck5]

If you are going offshore then get the third reef. You will use it.

My first boat was only set up for two reefs so when in Chesapeake Bay I used the first and second and when I went offshore I used the second and third. Of course, some new hardware had to be installed on the boom and mast but there was only room for two reefs in the rope clutch in the cockpit. This system worked well.

Now is the time to put the third reef point in. You dont have to use it but if you ever want it you have it.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by sck5

If you are going offshore then get the third reef. You will use it.

My first boat was only set up for two reefs so when in Chesapeake Bay I used the first and second and when I went offshore I used the second and third. Of course, some new hardware had to be installed on the boom and mast but there was only room for two reefs in the rope clutch in the cockpit. This system worked well.

Now is the time to put the third reef point in. You dont have to use it but if you ever want it you have it.

My mainsail even though it's 8 ounce will be 10 years old next year so I thought I'd just add the 2nd set of reef points and maybe ask if they can install them a little higher up the sail than a normal 2nd reef.

My boom already has the pulley and line guides for the second reef I do though have to go forward to the mast to set the reefs but if offshore I'll be doing that early.

The main offshore goal in the next few years will be to round the Outer Banks as an early test to see how it goes when I try an go cruising full time. That trip would be South in the ICW to Oriental, NC, Morehead and then Cape Lookout.

At that point do some out and back ocean sails and pick a good weather window to come back North to the bay on the outside, but I'll be 69-70 by then so it will be a tough trip single handing with short naps during the overnight.

Photos show boom pulleys and single main reef points.

Video is of a normal single reef sailing day making the 32 mile return trip back from Mobjack Bay with single reef line cleated off on boom near the mast.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRzpei2hZf8

[jmh2002]

To be honest I'm surprised that some people say they have never used their 3rd reef?

Sure, weather forecasts are better these days but on extended ocean passages (ie: cruising - not coastal) then one is bound to encounter some 3rd reef weather at some stage.

The only thing I can think of is that many cruising boats here may be vastly under canvassed in the first place, causing very poor (or non existent) performance in light air.

As a general rule, if the first reef isn't already being used in the mid teens of true wind speed (and from there it doesn't take much to get to the 2nd and 3rd reef) then probably the boat is under canvassed.

It's a common problem unfortunately. But cruising boats actually need relatively 'more' sail area, not less, because they are heavy after being loaded with gear, and normally have hull shapes with more wetted surface to support these loads. They may also need to sail for extended periods, even across oceans, in light air conditions.

Sadly many are underpowered.

[Clivevon]

jmh 2002 - I'm sure there is a lot in what you say - plenty of times have wished for more sail area. But on my ketch the mainsail is smaller than the sloop version of the same boat with a corresponding amount of sail area as the mizzen sail. So the same amount of sail area is lower with less heeling force which means we dont think about reefing the mainsail until 20 knots apparent at least.

[Clivevon]

Also on my boat we have three reefs - all have been used - plus the 4th reef option, which is to drop the main altogether & sail nicely balanced on jib & mizzen. That has also been used & makes a huge difference, everything gets much less fraught. Also worth heaving to when you reef, but you probably need an old fashioned boat to do it.

[jmh2002]

Agreed, a split rig changes the situation somewhat, but ketches are less common these days so most people are talking sloop monohulls here, even though the the OP has a catamaran.

Even so, you mentioned 20 knots apparent, and I said mid teens true, so we are still in the same ballpark, at least upwind

A boat with real light air performance is probably putting the first reef in around 10kn of wind.

[blubaju]

Fully agree, with permission of our designer, he sold the mast plans too, our somewhat larger rig & sail area puts the first reef to the "regular" size. So yes, 3rd reef is regularly used, would not like to miss it

[AKA-None]

Let me preface that I have a small boat with 2 reefs

I use two line reefing so that’s 4 shorter and less friction lines

I lower my main by reefing it down so it’s always all up all down or reefed

It seems to work for me

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by ftamburrano

Previous statements were:

"If there are no plans to sail offshore, two reefs will be plenty.". But you never know whether you will never sail offshore! It may happen, sooner or later! Why limit your freedom in advance?

"The typical cruising mainsail configuration uses two reefs, that are normally placed at intervals of approximately 12% of the luff length [not sail area]."
This does not take into account the fact that wind thrust is not linear with wind speed, but exponential. If wind speed increases by 24%, and you reduce surface by 24%, you are still in much worse condition than before! Reducing sail area by 24% is totally insufficient even in coastal sailing. Moreover, local situations are rarely foreseen by wheather forecast, and you may find yourself in trouble even if you had investigated different forecasts.

"In fact, most sailors, who limit their sailing to local trips, don’t sail for extended periods in high winds. The only high wind they will see will be in localized squalls, when they will probably take the mainsail down completely."
A valid safety criterium is to be ready for any situation at any time. Not sailing in high winds for extended periods of time may be useful in choosing the type of fabric (longer lasting), but not the surface area. Even a few minutes of extreme squalls may cause a big damages. You must always be ready to quickly reduce surface. I have two manual reefs, and the third one automatic (you do everything from the cockpit!). Very useful if sailing in the Gulf of leon (sudden Mistral blowing at 50 kn!), south of Rhone valley.

"A third reef is sometimes added for offshore work, again at another 12% of luff length (36%). Few boats, however, are set up with reef hardware for three reefs. The third reef will slightly decrease the overall durability of the sail (by adding weight to the leech), and necessitate hardware changes to the boom, to allow for a third reef line."
Reducing sail area by another 12% is totally insufficient. Look at graphs plotting wind force against wind speed! A slight decrease of sail durability should not be an element of decision where safety comes first. Hardware changes are limited and easy to implement.
My final advice with my 60 years of sailing experience is to have three reefs, of which only the last one (3rd) has to be automatic (implemented while all crew members remain safe in the cockpit). First reef reduces by luff length by 12%, 2nd by another 16%, , 3rd by 22%. At the end you have a max of 50% of luff length (no sail area) , no more! The reduction must be MORE THAN proportional.

I just got a new main for our 44’ heavy cutter. 3 reefs. I have jot tried it out yet.

The above post got me thinking about how many ways there are for folks specify and look at reef points. I with lout some standard the discussion becomes pretty meaningless.

Here is how the reefs are on the new sail. I gave them little to no direction, just described my usage, E Caribbean, and let the sailmaker do his thing.

I think you can see the progression of increasingly greater changes discussed above. Not saying it is right or wring, just sharing what I got.


No reef - 100%= 553 sq feet
1 reef - 76% = 431 22% reduction fm 100%
2 reef - 56% = 310 28% reduction fm 1 reef
3 reef - 33% = 182. 41% reduction fm 2 reef

[Cynara]

There is no standard because all boats are different. Like I said before we only had 2 points. The first one was deeper than most because in my experience when you have to do the 1st one you'll have to do the 2nd one soon enough. Plus we were a cutter so 1st Reef and our Genoa had slab reefing, no roller furling, we end up double reefed and the Genoa has a reef. When the wind gets stronger 30+ knots we take down the Genoa. Left with double reefed main and staysail, we just heave-to.

[hpeer]

A STANDARD way of DESCRIBING the reef.
Some use length of luff.
Some % of sail area.
Some % of decrease from previous sail area.
Most don’t really specify exactly how the measurement is taken.