2 to 1 Halyard

[caradow]

Originally Posted by CookiesnTequila

The only thing I can think of is the halyard core has parted from the outer braid. If that happens you will never be able to untwist no matter what you do. Time to replace the halyard.

Interesting to hear that you are not having that problem with the main, which should be worse because unless you are meticulous at shaking out the twist every time you raise the main (before you lower it), you should have worse twist. I think I will try one!!

Thanks however new Dyneema halyard.
Will try Double Wide's suggestion.
If that doesn't work may try getting rid of the 2:1 but think it will be too much for the sheaves.

[wongai64]

Try the Wichard X10 .. resolves the block twist issue ..

[CookiesnTequila]

Originally Posted by wongai64

Try the Wichard X10 .. resolves the block twist issue ..

At risk of sounding dumb - how does this work? I went to the Wichard website and saw a pic of it, but I'm lost....

[CookiesnTequila]

Originally Posted by caradow

Thanks however new Dyneema halyard.
Will try Double Wide's suggestion.
If that doesn't work may try getting rid of the 2:1 but think it will be too much for the sheaves.

Since my last post, we did a 26 hr overnight sail, and reefed and shook out reefs at least 4 times, during which I totally confirmed DoubleWide's explanation, and completely agree that taking the halyard off the winch after hoisting, and shaking the twists back toward the bitter end of the halyard before flaking is the best, and maybe only, way to prevent halyard twist!!

Always learning....

Thank you DW

[44'cruisingcat]

My halyard block is fixed - can't rotate, and we've never had a problem with halyard twist.

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

My halyard block is fixed - can't rotate, and we've never had a problem with halyard twist.

same here!

I don't understand why others don't fix the block and stop the problems.

[Training Wheels]

Same here, never had a problem. However, I do hoist the halyard by hand most the way.

[wongai64]

Originally Posted by CookiesnTequila

At risk of sounding dumb - how does this work? I went to the Wichard website and saw a pic of it, but I'm lost....

The X10 is a 2-1 running block with no moving parts .. it attaches to the main sail header and the halyard runs thru it and back to mast top. If any halyard twist occurs .. then it can naturally untwist as there is no pulley block to keep the twist in.

[paxfish]

Originally Posted by CookiesnTequila

At risk of sounding dumb - how does this work? I went to the Wichard website and saw a pic of it, but I'm lost....

Looks interesting for sure. I suppose the tangs on the top might dig into my crane. I think a piece of stainless plate might protect the crane though.

[wongai64]

The image shows it upside down .. another shackle goes thru the centre holes and connects it to the sail header

[CookiesnTequila]

Originally Posted by DotDun

same here!

I don't understand why others don't fix the block and stop the problems.

You wouldn't understand if you don't have the problem!!

Fixing the block does not solve the problem of developing twist, nor does it prevent the halyard from twisting once there is too much twist in it. It only extends amount of time before it becomes a problem, by letting you carry more twist in the halyard!

Our block has always been fixed - the block itself never twists, the 2-part halyard above the block (between the sail and the top of the mast) twists, and when that becomes too pronounced, it prevents the sail from being raised all the way, and restricts lowering it.

After reading every post on this thread at least twice - I feel that I finally understand it!!! I am convinced that twist is created by the halyard winch - one twist for each turn on the winch - and will move up the halyard (past the winch) only if we are not diligent to prevent it every time we hoist the main (I know that was my problem!). Now that I understand that this is what puts twist into the halyard (thank you DoubleWide), it will never happen on my boat again!! I know I am now preventing it by taking the time after hoisting the main, to remove the halyard from the winch and working the twists (no. of turns that the halyard was around the winch) back down and out of the halyard (to the bitter end).

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by CookiesnTequila

You wouldn't understand if you don't have the problem!!

Apparently!

Originally Posted by CookiesnTequila

Fixing the block does not solve the problem of developing twist, nor does it prevent the halyard from twisting once there is too much twist in it. It only extends amount of time before it becomes a problem, by letting you carry more twist in the halyard!

Our block has always been fixed - the block itself never twists, the 2-part halyard above the block (between the sail and the top of the mast) twists, and when that becomes too pronounced, it prevents the sail from being raised all the way, and restricts lowering it.

What does the halyard twist around??? If the block on the sail head is fixed, meaning it doesn't turn, I don't understand what the halyard is twisting with? Do you have pictures?

Originally Posted by CookiesnTequila

After reading every post on this thread at least twice - I feel that I finally understand it!!! I am convinced that twist is created by the halyard winch - one twist for each turn on the winch - and will move up the halyard (past the winch) only if we are not diligent to prevent it every time we hoist the main (I know that was my problem!). Now that I understand that this is what puts twist into the halyard (thank you DoubleWide), it will never happen on my boat again!! I know I am now preventing it by taking the time after hoisting the main, to remove the halyard from the winch and working the twists (no. of turns that the halyard was around the winch) back down and out of the halyard (to the bitter end).

[doublewide]

The question, "what does it twist around?"
The answer: It twists around itself. The descending and ascending limbs of the halyard twist each about the other. See the attached .pdf which depicts the masthead and the head of the sail when the sail is fully raised with no twist in the halyard. The illustration shows how the halyard emerges from the masthead sheave, dips down under the headboard block and back up to a clevis pin in the masthead box assembly. Thanks to Antares yachts for this illustration.


Now introduce twist into the halyard. The headboard block is designed to swivel, so as the twist in the halyard increases, it forces the block to rotate. Increasing further the twist in the halyard causes the block to rotate several times creating a spiral twist of the descending and ascending limbs between the headboard block and the headbox assembly. Twist it too tightly and it interferes with both raising and lowering the sail.

The solution is to eliminate, before lowering the sail, all twist from the free portion of the halyard. Pass all twist off the bitter end.

Also consider adding a swivel to the masthead end of the halyard, between the halyard and the clevis pin. With a swivel, if despite your best efforts to keep the halyard untwisted some twist still works its way up to the masthead, the swivel should allow the twist to escape.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by doublewide

Now introduce twist into the halyard. The headboard block is designed to swivel, so as the twist in the halyard increases, it forces the block to rotate.

But this is the point. Lock the block so it CAN'T swivel. The halyard may develop some twist, but it has no effect.

People I know have been doing this for years, with zero problems. Zero. I've been doing it for the past 18 months (and around 5000 nm) or so, and again, zero problems.

[Seaslug Caravan]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

But this is the point. Lock the block so it CAN'T swivel. The halyard may develop some twist, but it has no effect.

People I know have been doing this for years, with zero problems. Zero. I've been doing it for the past 18 months (and around 5000 nm) or so, and again, zero problems.

And me. I've been doing it for 18 years and its all new to me.

Out of interest do the people that have the twist problem disconnect their main halyard from the headboard after each use ? I always disconnect the halyard when I put the main to bed. I use the Whichard shackle pictured above. Is that the difference? just wondering. There's gotta be a reason