2 to 1 Halyard

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by Seaslug Caravan

And me. I've been doing it for 18 years and its all new to me.

Out of interest do the people that have the twist problem disconnect their main halyard from the headboard after each use ? I always disconnect the halyard when I put the main to bed. I use the Whichard shackle pictured above. Is that the difference? just wondering. There's gotta be a reason

Same here!

13 years and 2 halyards and never had the halyard twist around itself above the sail.

The secret, as has been told many times in this thread - use a non-swiveling block on the sail headboard!!!!

[Sailmonkey]

Originally Posted by DotDun

Same here!



13 years and 2 halyards and never had the halyard twist around itself above the sail.



The secret, as has been told many times in this thread - use a non-swiveling block on the sail headboard!!!!

I've chartered 8 different cats over the years. Two of them had such bad halyard twist the main wouldn't go up the last two feet!! So in my standard way, when the anchor went down and everyone else was swimming or imbibing I went about attaching a messenger to the halyard, pulling it out of the mast and removing about 20 turns from the length of the line. Mind you the head block was locked.

[doublewide]

Excellent post. I will try locking the block so it can't swivel. And I will continue my efforts to avoid introducing any twist into the halyard, too. I think this has been an excellent thread.

[Sail IC]

Have a Lewmar block and the swivel locking mechanism had a tendency to come off. Filled it with some pieces and then epoxy, just to make sure it would stay locked.

[Seaslug Caravan]

Originally Posted by Sailmonkey

I've chartered 8 different cats over the years. Two of them had such bad halyard twist the main wouldn't go up the last two feet!! So in my standard way, when the anchor went down and everyone else was swimming or imbibing I went about attaching a messenger to the halyard, pulling it out of the mast and removing about 20 turns from the length of the line. Mind you the head block was locked.

Ok , I'm thinking we now have a generation of sailors who are either, unwilling, incapable, two lazy, or its all to dangerous to reach and remove the halyard from the main and secure it in a seamanlike fashion after use.

What starts out as an unnoticed slight twist, builds up and up over time until we have the dangerous situation where its difficult to raise and lower the main.

The whole point of the 2:1 on a cruising boat is to make life easier. NO its got stuff all to do with lowering the compression loads as the SF's aren't that fine.

You could rip the main up most of the way by hand and finish off with the winch.

Then along came the electric winch and its associated "brute force and ignorance". paired up with a gooseneck thats 20 feet in the air.

Just gotta walk around any marina to see those little catamaran headboards peeking out of their sail bags, still attached to the halyard, rotting away in the sun.

All I can say is you reap what you sow.
Whats going to be the next big thing? Let me guess a "single string" main halyard with captive drum electric winch.

As long as people continue to buy SAIL boats with sail handling or simple things like being able to safely reach the main, coming a distant second to the colour of the shag pile in the forward cabins, and galley location up or down, then simple things like halyard twist are going to bite you on the backside.

There. Rant over. continue with your twisting.

[44'cruisingcat]

SO how does removing the (2:1) halyard from the main reduce twist in the halyard?

[Seaslug Caravan]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

SO how does removing the (2:1) halyard from the main reduce twist in the halyard?

Forgive me 44c I forgot you were still participating in this discussion, otherwise I would have drawn you a picture of how to roll any? developing twist into the sheave return portion of the halyard whilst it was completely unloaded and free to show its twists.

I suspect most of these headboards are just to high to reach easily.

[doublewide]

It took me a couple of readings to get the point of making the block not rotate. I felt silly when I finally saw the obvious.

Recent contributors have suggested removing the halyard from the sail after each use and untwisting it. They, too, are missing something. This would be an elegant solution, except the thing about a 2:1 halyard is that one CAN'T remove the halyard from the headboard because the end of the 2:1 halyard is attached to the masthead, not to the mainsail headboard. This is why the problem of removing halyard twist is unique to the 2:1 set-up.

I think there have been some very worthwhile suggestions in this thread. Thanks to all who have contributed.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Seaslug Caravan

Forgive me 44c I forgot you were still participating in this discussion, otherwise I would have drawn you a picture of how to roll any? developing twist into the sheave return portion of the halyard whilst it was completely unloaded and free to show its twists.

I suspect most of these headboards are just to high to reach easily.

I'm still here. Draw a picture.

[mark_morwood]

Originally Posted by CookiesnTequila

You wouldn't understand if you don't have the problem!!

Fixing the block does not solve the problem of developing twist, nor does it prevent the halyard from twisting once there is too much twist in it. It only extends amount of time before it becomes a problem, by letting you carry more twist in the halyard!

Our block has always been fixed - the block itself never twists, the 2-part halyard above the block (between the sail and the top of the mast) twists, and when that becomes too pronounced, it prevents the sail from being raised all the way, and restricts lowering it.

After reading every post on this thread at least twice - I feel that I finally understand it!!! I am convinced that twist is created by the halyard winch - one twist for each turn on the winch - and will move up the halyard (past the winch) only if we are not diligent to prevent it every time we hoist the main (I know that was my problem!). Now that I understand that this is what puts twist into the halyard (thank you DoubleWide), it will never happen on my boat again!! I know I am now preventing it by taking the time after hoisting the main, to remove the halyard from the winch and working the twists (no. of turns that the halyard was around the winch) back down and out of the halyard (to the bitter end).

That was also my conclusion with our boat - the bulkhead mounted halyard winch (electric) was putting the twist into the tail of the halyard. Locking the block on the headboard (we had the wichard shackle which is locked) doesn't affect the twist, it just lets it pass through rather than letting the halyard spin up on itself and lock itself. You still end up with twist that eventually causes problems. We reduced the problem dramatically by being careful to take the twist out of the tail after we raised the main. I never really worked out in my head the physics/geometry that was causing the winch to add the twist.

Our bigger problem was the two to one halyard on the code 0. No way to lock that block on the head of the code 0 as it was a furler. It used the same halyard winch as the main. We were just very careful to untwist the tail of the halyard.

I was always jealous of the boats that didn't have this problem, but I can assure those without this problem that locking the block helps alleviate the symptoms but does not solve the root problem.

[TPF]

Hi Mark, understand your issue with mainsail halyard twist....we had the same problem on our FP Helia 44......after a period of use, despite a locked turning block on the main halyard, we continued trying all the fore mentioned methods above....nothing stopped or slowed it down other than this.

In discussion with a rigger friend in Queensland, we did the following:
1. Replaced the FP supplied 14mm mainhalyard with a better quality Australian made dyneema core halyard.
2. Had the rigger create a 2m dyneema tail with an eye splice at the end of the tail for connecting to the shackle at the masthead.

We have just finished our 2nd season of use in the Aegean with this modified halyard and have experienced very little twist in the halyard. I believe the reason for the twist is the differential movement between the core and the polyester cover rolling over the full hoist of the 2:1 block that over time and repetitive use creates the halyard twist. The 2m tail of just the dyneema alone (which is certainly strong enough on its own) doesn't twist.

I was worried about the potential wear on the exposed dyneema, but after two full seasons, it is showing wear but nothing more than the polyester cover on the rest of the halyard.

Next year we cross the Atlantic and I will probably replace it before we go, but if we get three full seasons out of a heavily used halyard, I will happily trade that cost spread over three years vs the hassle of a twisted main halyard.[emoji3]

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by doublewide

It took me a couple of readings to get the point of making the block not rotate. I felt silly when I finally saw the obvious.

Recent contributors have suggested removing the halyard from the sail after each use and untwisting it. They, too, are missing something. This would be an elegant solution, except the thing about a 2:1 halyard is that one CAN'T remove the halyard from the headboard because the end of the 2:1 halyard is attached to the masthead, not to the mainsail headboard. This is why the problem of removing halyard twist is unique to the 2:1 set-up.

I think there have been some very worthwhile suggestions in this thread. Thanks to all who have contributed.

I remove the halyard from the headboard after use, but not for the purpose of shaking out twist. I despise slapping halyards and if you just tie it back and don't take it out of the lazy jacks, it'll just chafe itself and the jacklines.

My halyard is NOT run back to the helm, I raise/lower the main from the base of the mast (yeah, the old school way!). I raise the main 1/2-3/4 by hand then use the winch for the remainder. I remove the halyard from the winch and either hide the mess in the rope locker or leave it lay on the deck. I have never seen any twist work it's way up the halyard and around the masthead sheave, in fact, I've never seen any twist above the jammer on the mast.

I use this to attach the block to the sail:

http://www.lewmar.com/node/11447?v=24763

[CookiesnTequila]

Originally Posted by TPF

Hi Mark, understand your issue with mainsail halyard twist....we had the same problem on our FP Helia 44......after a period of use, despite a locked turning block on the main halyard, we continued trying all the fore mentioned methods above....nothing stopped or slowed it down other than this.

In discussion with a rigger friend in Queensland, we did the following:
1. Replaced the FP supplied 14mm mainhalyard with a better quality Australian made dyneema core halyard.
2. Had the rigger create a 2m dyneema tail with an eye splice at the end of the tail for connecting to the shackle at the masthead.

We have just finished our 2nd season of use in the Aegean with this modified halyard and have experienced very little twist in the halyard. I believe the reason for the twist is the differential movement between the core and the polyester cover rolling over the full hoist of the 2:1 block that over time and repetitive use creates the halyard twist. The 2m tail of just the dyneema alone (which is certainly strong enough on its own) doesn't twist.

I was worried about the potential wear on the exposed dyneema, but after two full seasons, it is showing wear but nothing more than the polyester cover on the rest of the halyard.

Next year we cross the Atlantic and I will probably replace it before we go, but if we get three full seasons out of a heavily used halyard, I will happily trade that cost spread over three years vs the hassle of a twisted main halyard.[emoji3]

Very interesting! If I understand correctly, you have 2 meters of exposed dyneema at the mast head end of your halyard - which means thatwhen your sail is raised the bare dyneema is all that is running through the block - correct?

I often wondered if using 12 strand single braid dyneema would cure the twist.... Does anyone know if that would work? Will it hold in the clutch?

I have removed my halyard from the masthead and spent hours untwisting it until it looked perfectly straight, only to have it twist again right after i reinstall it - which can only mean the core is twisting separate from the cover. (When that happens the only answer is a new halyard! )

On another note - I would think you should get more than 3 years out of the bare dyneema. Does anyone know for sure?