200nm/day - What's it Really Take???

[Snowpetrel]

It was interesting to compare my speed on an overweight 34 foot steel monohull for the voyage from Australia down to East Antarctica vs a larger 38 foot foam core open deck racing catamaran that did the same trip a few years before (icecat).

Our passage times were reasonably similar. What they made up for in terms of top end speed was lost when they hove too or slowed down to reduce the risk of damage or for confort/fatigue reasons while we kept driving pretty hard through whatever got chucked at us, and only lay to a drogue for 12 hours or so.

An easier trip would have seen them well ahead, but in this case my much slower boat very much did the Hare vs the Turtle thing.

[UNCIVILIZED]

I'll admit that zipping around the oceans at 20kts isn't appealing unless one has crash bulkheads, & or, unsinkability. That & a keel, plus keel floors which can take a rediculous hammering, along with rudders sealed in their own WT compartments. Still, the idea is more than a little appealing. As expounded upon here --> http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2445329

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

Okay, here's the question. Given average winds, not continuous 20kts+ trades, what does it take to average 200nm per day? In terms of boat size, style, sail inventory, & crew work level. Obviously it's easier to accomplish on a big boat, with lots of energetic crew, & a quiver of sails having great depth. But for the rest of us, what's the bottom line? And doing 200nm per day needn't be your norm or average. But rather numbers that you see semi regularly.
Oh, & this of course includes having your normal cruising gear loadout onboard when doing it.

The biggest single factor is the skipper. I have no doubt Dennis Connor or Randy Smyth giving orders would turn more boats in to 200 mile a day boats than any other single factor. Next factor would probably be boat design and sail plan. My Seawind with a big square top and well cut screecher is easy for me to single hand at 10+ knots in 15 knot wind and reasonable seas. On the other hand I have seen conditions where a cold front blasting out of the North turned the Gulf Stream into a hell of short period square waves that would stop anything with out a motor from heading North. I am sure there are plenty of 30-50 foot cats with a 9-1 or greater length to hull beam ratio that could produce 10+ knots. The problem for a 200+ mile day is a significant part of the 24 hours is in the dark. Keeping watch in the dark can be a problem, not to mention it is not as easy to see sail shape, or tell tales, in the dark.

Another consideration is one 200 mile day is a lot easier to do than two 200 mile days in a row. I realize not everyone has the same goals, but even one 200 mile day does not sound like fun to me. Since my single biggest goal is to have fun I doubt I will be doing 200 mile days, even though I have little doubt my boat is capable of one.

On the other hand I do a lot of what I call "day sailing". By this I mean something like a trip from Florida to Bimini, or Bimini to Great Harbor, Morgan's Bluff to West Bay, West Bay to Spanish Wells; all trips that are fairly easy to do in daylight or maybe mostly daylight if I leave a few hours before dawn. So for me it is more important for a boat to do 100+ miles in 12 hours (of daylight) than for a boat to do 200+ miles in 24 hours.

Still pushing my rant about getting a boat for what you will be doing, not a boat for what you fantasize you will be doing.

[Dockhead]

200 miles a day is 8.3 knots average continuously.

I think to make 200 mile days even occasionally, you need a boat with hull speed one knot more than that. To be able to do for some days in a row, you need hull speed two knots above that.

That's for a reasonably fast boat with D/L of say 200. Adjust appropriately for faster/lighter boats or heavy/tubby boats.

My boat has hull speed of 9.3 knots (47' waterline) and is reasonably light at 188 D/L. To make a 200 mile day I have to be sailing pretty near hull speed most of the time, which is sailing hard. I don't think I could do it for many days at a time, but it's doable on my boat, and I do have them occasionally. My personal best day's run on this boat is 223 miles. I didn't break anything, but it was not actually fun. You have to put huge forces into the boat to break hull speed and keep it there for hours at a time.

A boat with a 65' waterline -- like a Sundeer -- will be able to do 250 mile days occasionally and 200 mile days easily.

The power required to achieve a certain speed goes up exponentially when you get near hull speed. Two knots below hull speed takes far less power, and is a good cruising speed. I like to motor at about 7 knots, with the engine just loping along at 1800 RPM or so in calm weather. Likewise sailing at 7 knots takes very little effort and does not require much wind or very careful sail trim except hard on the wind.

Waterline length is the key factor in this question -- but talking about cruising boats, of course. Really fast racing boats or ultralight boats made to plane, like Pogos, are rather different, and nothing here applies exactly to such boats.

Sail inventory is much less important. Obviously, you can produce more power with the right sails for the conditions. But power REQUIRED goes up exponentially when you get near hull speed, so the relationship between hull speed and the speed you are trying to achieve plays a much bigger role.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

I'll admit that zipping around the oceans at 20kts isn't appealing unless one has crash bulkheads, & or, unsinkability. That & a keel, plus keel floors which can take a rediculous hammering, along with rudders sealed in their own WT compartments. Still, the idea is more than a little appealing. As expounded upon here --> http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2445329

That assumes the crew can take it. Young, fearless and brave perhaps but later in life no chance. Its interesting to watch a fleet like the Arc, the front runners are achieving some really good runs, but look at the speeds the middle of the pack achieve, its 5 - 6 knots. The back runners are in the 4 - 5 knot range, probably a true reflection of a yacht stuffed full of cruising kit and not wanting to break anything major.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

200 miles a day is 8.3 knots average continuously.

I think to make 200 mile days even occasionally, you need a boat with hull speed one knot more than that. To be able to do for some days in a row, you need hull speed two knots above that.

That's for a reasonably fast boat with D/L of say 200. Adjust appropriately for faster/lighter boats or heavy/tubby boats.

My boat has hull speed of 9.3 knots (47' waterline) and is reasonably light at 188 D/L. To make a 200 mile day I have to be sailing pretty near hull speed most of the time, which is sailing hard. I don't think I could do it for many days at a time, but it's doable on my boat, and I do have them occasionally. My personal best day's run on this boat is 223 miles. I didn't break anything, but it was not actually fun. You have to put huge forces into the boat to break hull speed and keep it there for hours at a time.

A boat with a 65' waterline -- like a Sundeer -- will be able to do 250 mile days occasionally and 200 mile days easily.

The power required to achieve a certain speed goes up exponentially when you get near hull speed. Two knots below hull speed takes far less power, and is a good cruising speed. I like to motor at about 7 knots, with the engine just loping along at 1800 RPM or so in calm weather. Likewise sailing at 7 knots takes very little effort and does not require much wind or very careful sail trim except hard on the wind.

Waterline length is the key factor in this question -- but talking about cruising boats, of course. Really fast racing boats or ultralight boats made to plane, like Pogos, are rather different, and nothing here applies exactly to such boats.

Sail inventory is much less important. Obviously, you can produce more power with the right sails for the conditions. But power REQUIRED goes up exponentially when you get near hull speed, so the relationship between hull speed and the speed you are trying to achieve plays a much bigger role.

If you're talking about fine-hulled multihulls, there really isn't a hull speed limit since the hulls are not creating big bow waves. No bow waves means no power hump required to climb them.

Our Outremer 55L has a nominal hull speed of 9.7 knots but can effortlessly surpass that for extended periods of time - it does not feel like a limit at all. About 14 knots in flat water is a limit because we don't want to get anywhere close to lifting a hull so we are depowering at that point. In waves surfing we easily hit high teens and low twenties, with slows to low teens between surfs. Upwind in bigger seas the comfort level is about 8-9 knots.

220+ is what we expect in reasonable seas, and the longer boat makes the speed smoother. In rougher seas when bridgedeck hits get common the difficulty is to slow down enough so the boat doesn't keep driving up the backs of the waves. On a recent passage in 25 knots of wind at 70 degrees AWA (130 degrees TWA), we reefed down to 30% jib and 3rd reef main (reefing for 40 knots according to our reefing guide) and still averaged 9.5 knots over 60 hours.

We passage plan for 160 miles motoring and 190-230 miles sailing, depending on the expected conditions. Deep downwind in lighter winds is not fast, while everything else is usually as fast as we can stand it - cruising is about slowing down rather driving hard.

But it is more fun to slow a faster boat down than to wish you had a faster boat.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Pete7

That assumes the crew can take it. Young, fearless and brave perhaps but later in life no chance. Its interesting to watch a fleet like the Arc, the front runners are achieving some really good runs, but look at the speeds the middle of the pack achieve, its 5 - 6 knots. The back runners are in the 4 - 5 knot range, probably a true reflection of a yacht stuffed full of cruising kit and not wanting to break anything major.

To talk about daily runs, we really also need to talk about suitable weather.

On an ocean crossing like the ARC you will have plenty of days with not enough wind -- no matter how much sail area you have -- to move the boat much. It brings the average down.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by fxykty

If you're talking about fine-hulled multihulls, there really isn't a hull speed limit since the hulls are not creating big bow waves. No bow waves means no power hump required to climb them.

Our Outremer 55L has a nominal hull speed of 9.7 knots but can effortlessly surpass that for extended periods of time - it does not feel like a limit at all. About 14 knots in flat water is a limit because we don't want to get anywhere close to lifting a hull so we are depowering at that point. In waves surfing we easily hit high teens and low twenties, with slows to low teens between surfs. Upwind in bigger seas the comfort level is about 8-9 knots.

220+ is what we expect in reasonable seas, and the longer boat makes the speed smoother. In rougher seas when bridgedeck hits get common the difficulty is to slow down enough so the boat doesn't keep driving up the backs of the waves. On a recent passage in 25 knots of wind at 70 degrees AWA (130 degrees TWA), we reefed down to 30% jib and 3rd reef main (reefing for 40 knots according to our reefing guide) and still averaged 9.5 knots over 60 hours.

We passage plan for 160 miles motoring and 190-230 miles sailing, depending on the expected conditions. Deep downwind in lighter winds is not fast, while everything else is usually as fast as we can stand it - cruising is about slowing down rather driving hard.

But it is more fun to slow a faster boat down than to wish you had a faster boat.

Yes, I wasn't talking about multihulls at all, which follow different rules PROVIDED they are light and fine enough to take advantage of this.

Loaded cruising cats seem to sail about like monos of similar size and type (NOT length).

And I love and totally agree with your last sentence!

[StuM]

Originally Posted by tomfl

So for me it is more important for a boat to do 100+ miles in 12 hours (of daylight) than for a boat to do 200+ miles in 24 hours.

+1

Anyone with any sense reduces sail and slows down at night!

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

To talk about daily runs, we really also need to talk about suitable weather.

On an ocean crossing like the ARC you will have plenty of days with not enough wind -- no matter how much sail area you have -- to move the boat much. It brings the average down.

I think that a fair percentage of the boats & crews doing the ARC, as well as cruising, are fairly green by racing or offshore passaging standards. Not that they don't have sea time persay, but that they don't have the depth of experience to know where the line between pushing & foolish lays. Nor the deisre to find out. As when you've a good idea where that line is, you can push fairly hard with little damage: To the boat, her gear, or her crew. A thing which is always worthwhile to learn, or expound upon. As it expands your judgement & depth of seamanship for when things truly begin to get hairy.

Yes, light air hurts, but properly fitted out & trimmed, most boats should be able to sail at 2-3kts or more in all but the lightest of airs. Albeit their VMG won't be optimal, but doing 3kts SOG when TWS reads 4kts truly is good for morale. As well as keeping a nice cool breeze flowing over the boat. And said speed may well allow you to crab over into a more favorable weather system, & thus then make up some time.

The other sad truth is that I'd venture that a large percentage of the slower boats have a limited light air sail inventory at best. Sure, they have monsterous ground tackle, the latest in electronic nav aids & toys, & even good storm sails. But buying light air sails tends to be near the end of the list for a lot of folks, for whatever reason. I can't say as I know what that reason is. Fear maybe. Of big sails, being overpowered, knocked down, "looking foolish", I don't know. And none of those are based in reality really, other than taking a knock if caught with too much canvas up as a squall rolls in.

IMO a boat without at least 2-3 light air sails is doomed to either drift or motor when the breeze drops into the sub 5kt range. And personally, I'd trade just about anything onboard, but for my drysuit, big anchor, or radar, for a versatile light air sail or quiver of such sails to choose from. Especially given their price if you pick them up used, & or improvise.

[Just Another Sa]

Originally Posted by Catmandu

I found that a clean bottom could add 1+ kts.

Flex-o-fold props add 1 kt.

In light airs esp. when the wind is off the beam (130+ apparent) we found that adding one motor at 1,600-1,900 rpm was enough to pull the apparent wind forward causing the sails to begin drawing ... if we could pull the wind far enough forward to say 60 apparent we could get the boat to 9-10 kts motor sailing on one engine in 4-5 kts true. ... so engine does occasionally help.

If your boat does 10 knots with 5 knots of true, the apparent wind angle is 30 degrees or less, regardless what point of sail your boat is on or if it even uses any sails at all. 60 degrees apparent would require boat speed and true wind speed to be about the same, not 2:1.

[iceblast-g]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

Okay, here's the question. Given average winds, not continuous 20kts+ trades, what does it take to average 200nm per day? In terms of boat size, style, sail inventory, & crew work level. Obviously it's easier to accomplish on a big boat, with lots of energetic crew, & a quiver of sails having great depth. But for the rest of us, what's the bottom line? And doing 200nm per day needn't be your norm or average. But rather numbers that you see semi regularly.
Oh, & this of course includes having your normal cruising gear loadout onboard when doing it.

Check out Jaguar 36 Cat sailing to Mexico averaged 200nm day You Tube
We have the moulds to start making this great cat again and better

[captmikem]

I sailed an 80' Frers Cutter, built by PJ around the world with my wife. Just the two of us most of the time. I had several 200 mile days. Coming across the Atlantic I had a few 220 days, but we carry a chute 24 hrs a day when we can.

The reach from Galapagos to Easter (once we got the wind) were mostly 200+ days, again s spinnaker reach.

Around the world we averaged 7.5 kts. or 180 miles per day. But we beat across the Indian ocean, (well Shri Lanka to the Med), which was slow going, and anytime we had really bad wx forward of the beam we hove to, a couple of times for a day or more, which really slowed the overall average down. But then we had a few days of surfing down the west coast of NZ in a blow where we would hit and sustain 12kts for a few moments.

M

[DMCantor]

Our 46' monohull will easily do 8 or 9 knots on a close reach in 20 knots of wind. If you can sail in those conditions, it's just a matter of paying attention to sail trim. For us, if the wind pipes up to 25 or more, we have to reef deeply to stay under 10 knots (and comfortable). Beating is another story.

You can find those conditions in the trades, especially around Christmas.

[captmikem]

Originally Posted by StuM

+1

Anyone with any sense reduces sail and slows down at night!

Yo ar kidding right? Why would you subject yourself to rolling around under-canvased at night?