200nm/day - What's it Really Take???

[Just Another Sa]

Originally Posted by fxykty

If you're talking about fine-hulled multihulls, there really isn't a hull speed limit since the hulls are not creating big bow waves. No bow waves means no power hump required to climb them.

Our Outremer 55L has a nominal hull speed of 9.7 knots but can effortlessly surpass that for extended periods of time - it does not feel like a limit at all. About 14 knots in flat water is a limit because we don't want to get anywhere close to lifting a hull so we are depowering at that point. In waves surfing we easily hit high teens and low twenties, with slows to low teens between surfs. Upwind in bigger seas the comfort level is about 8-9 knots.

220+ is what we expect in reasonable seas, and the longer boat makes the speed smoother. In rougher seas when bridgedeck hits get common the difficulty is to slow down enough so the boat doesn't keep driving up the backs of the waves. On a recent passage in 25 knots of wind at 70 degrees AWA (130 degrees TWA), we reefed down to 30% jib and 3rd reef main (reefing for 40 knots according to our reefing guide) and still averaged 9.5 knots over 60 hours.

We passage plan for 160 miles motoring and 190-230 miles sailing, depending on the expected conditions. Deep downwind in lighter winds is not fast, while everything else is usually as fast as we can stand it - cruising is about slowing down rather driving hard.

But it is more fun to slow a faster boat down than to wish you had a faster boat.

With 25 knots true wind, and 130 degrees twa and 70 degrees awa, your boat speed is not even close to 9.5 knots, its 23.04 knots.
Of course your boat can average 59% less, but then at least one of the given numbers for Twa, Awa and Tws must change by a very significant amount as well.

[Dave22q]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I'm not trying to be cute, really I'm not, but I averaged 10+ kts all the way from Miami to Stuart.
However the 4 kt Gulf Stream didn't hurt [emoji3]Attachment 153090

I'm considering a similar run but am a little concerned about commercial traffic, particularly at night. Did you see much other than at Miami and Port Everglades? Do you see AIS as necessary or just nice to have on this run? Would PM this but cannot see how.

[PhiSig1071]

Originally Posted by captmikem

Yo ar kidding right? Why would you subject yourself to rolling around under-canvased at night?

He's on a Cat. A Fountaine Pajot Belize 43. Under canvased means slightly slower (for a cat), but no rolling.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Dave22q

I'm considering a similar run but am a little concerned about commercial traffic, particularly at night. Did you see much other than at Miami and Port Everglades? Do you see AIS as necessary or just nice to have on this run? Would PM this but cannot see how.

There was a tremendous amount of Commercial traffic, like a highway.
My take is because I was broadcasting AIS they mostly kept their distance, however just one followed me very close for awhile, then passed me to to Starboard about 100 yds off and cut in front of me to make Port Everglades. Wasn't dangerous, but was way closer than I expected. I didn't bother to call him, cause I didn't feel I was in danger.
Also with AIS you really get a sense on how many there are, cause you see them on AIS, many you don't see visually.

My take is AIS is something you really didn't think you needed, until you have it, then you don't want to ever go without, sort of like an autopilot. We didn't have one the first year or two, but now that I have, I would not want to consider life without the thing. AIS is like that.

[estarzinger]

UnCiv, Beth wrote an article entitled 'The Reality of 200-mile days', where she looked at your specific question in pretty decent depth. Used to be on our website, but you can probably find it on the net somewhere.

The first conclusion is "With very few exceptions, cruising boats just don’t average 200-mile days." Some data just to indicate how difficult it is: "In the 2002 Bermuda race, only two boats out of 123 (Table 1) averaged just over 8.33 knots or 200 miles per day along the relatively short 635-mile course, and they were 60 and 65 feet in length and racing in breezy, beam-reaching conditions. Three boats managed it in the lighter air race this year; all three were hot, new 86-foot Maxis with IMS ratings of less than 400 seconds per mile (9.5 knots). None of the 205 boats in the 2000 ARC, including a Whitbread 60, averaged 200-mile days over the 2,680-nautical mile course. In last year’s fast, downwind ARC, only five boats managed it, and they averaged 70 feet in length and were all fully crewed race boats being pushed every minute."

Second conclusions "In perfect conditions, cruising boats with less than 45 feet of waterline will only very rarely sail a 200-mile day, but those with over 50 feet will do so regularly. In the real world, then, to count on crossing that magical 200-mile day mark once or twice on most passages, you’ll need a minimum of 45 feet of waterline if you get a light displacement (less than 100 DLR) catamaran or monohull and keep the weight off it. For a moderate to heavy displacement boat, you’ll need at least 50 feet of waterline. To average 200-mile days over long passages, you’ll need a minimum of 75 feet of waterline on a monohull and 55 feet on a multihull – well beyond the means of most of us." And she included data to support that.

A significant problem with the 200 'average' is that even in the trades, the winds are pretty damn variable. You really very rarely get a solid 24 hours of 'perfect'. We for instance have had 12 hours of 250 mile pace, followed by 12 hours of 125 mile pace, square in the trade bands.

2nd, cruising boats (even multi's) tend to get heavy over time, unless the owners are really really ruthless, and really really interested in speed.

And 3rd, above 9 kts, on the size boats we are talking about, it usually gets bumpy and noisy and twichy - just less fun for a long haul. So, the boat often gets slowed down.

[Elie]

My boat with a 42 ft LWL can sail 170-180 nm in the trade winds, and sailing from Nassau , the via the Berries Grand Bahamas and then the middle of Gulf Stream with a good wind (20-25) we achieved 211 milles noon to noon!. It was at times a bit rough but not enough to impeach our ritual rhum hour and an elaborate dinner, with roast, wine and all...

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Just Another Sa

With 25 knots true wind, and 130 degrees twa and 70 degrees awa, your boat speed is not even close to 9.5 knots, its 23.04 knots.

Of course your boat can average 59% less, but then at least one of the given numbers for Twa, Awa and Tws must change by a very significant amount as well.

AWS varied between high teens and high twenties, depending on whether we were surfing or not. Average boat speed was 9.5, going from lows of around 8 to highs of 12-13. We were purposely depowered to limit the surges.

[elandra65]

We averaged 200nms/day for 6 days between Galapagos and Marquesas and 183nms/day for the entire passage in a Dufour 50. Of course thar was in 20k trades on the beam. It can be done in the right conditions but not often. Key to speed is long waterline, ligthish weight, high sa/d and a clean bottom. However I dont think even Dashews boats actually average 200nm regularly and they are long.
Andrew

[TJ D]

Hi all,
Uncivilized asked me to chime in on this one.

We're regularly at 200+/day with just two of us on board. I don't think that we average 200-I don't fuss about the numbers that much, but we're probably at more like 170-180 over the long term, but it's quite common to string together multiple 200's. 260 miles is our best day's run, but RS has done over 300 under a previous owner. We just don't push her that hard, or care enough about the last knot or two to put in the work to get it. We probably sail the boat at about 70% of its potential.

However, I don't really think that we qualify as a cruising boat in the conventional sense either. More like a cruising boat for folks who can't stand going slow. Our sa/d is pushing 30, D/L is 72. We also employ water ballast when appropriate, the equivalent of 8 big guys on the rail.

LWL is 54', too.

Just a few days ago, we had a 220 mile day on the way across Biscay, beam reaching in 12-16 knots TWS. This was comfortable sailing on autopilot with minimal trimming.

So, it can be done, but it's out of the reach of just about all but unusually big boats built for speed. Fast cats are a different story, of course.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by captmikem

Yo ar kidding right? Why would you subject yourself to rolling around under-canvased at night?

Rolling around?
This is a thread in the Multihull section of CF.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Just Another Sa

With 25 knots true wind, and 130 degrees twa and 70 degrees awa, your boat speed is not even close to 9.5 knots, its 23.04 knots.
Of course your boat can average 59% less, but then at least one of the given numbers for Twa, Awa and Tws must change by a very significant amount as well.

Yep, a few impossible numbers cropping up here again from people who clearly don't have a good grasp of basic vector arithmetic

A useful tool to illustrate your point is Starpath True Wind.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by TJ D

...
We probably sail the boat at about 70% of its potential.

...

You nailed it - for cruising it's not about pushing the boat to gear and personnel failure to attain this kind of daily run on average.

[44'cruisingcat]

We've done a few 200+ mile days, Did 310 miles in 33 hours, 300 in 36, and 120 in 10 hours once. All shorthanded, on autopilot, working sails, reefing at night. (Except the 10 hour one).

We need about 10 - 15 on or slightly forward of the beam, or maybe around 20 aft of it.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

I think that a fair percentage of the boats & crews doing the ARC, as well as cruising, are fairly green by racing or offshore passaging standards. Not that they don't have sea time persay, but that they don't have the depth of experience to know where the line between pushing & foolish lays. Nor the deisre to find out. As when you've a good idea where that line is, you can push fairly hard with little damage: To the boat, her gear, or her crew. A thing which is always worthwhile to learn, or expound upon. As it expands your judgement & depth of seamanship for when things truly begin to get hairy.

Yes, light air hurts, but properly fitted out & trimmed, most boats should be able to sail at 2-3kts or more in all but the lightest of airs. Albeit their VMG won't be optimal, but doing 3kts SOG when TWS reads 4kts truly is good for morale. As well as keeping a nice cool breeze flowing over the boat. And said speed may well allow you to crab over into a more favorable weather system, & thus then make up some time.

The other sad truth is that I'd venture that a large percentage of the slower boats have a limited light air sail inventory at best. Sure, they have monsterous ground tackle, the latest in electronic nav aids & toys, & even good storm sails. But buying light air sails tends to be near the end of the list for a lot of folks, for whatever reason. I can't say as I know what that reason is. Fear maybe. Of big sails, being overpowered, knocked down, "looking foolish", I don't know. And none of those are based in reality really, other than taking a knock if caught with too much canvas up as a squall rolls in.

IMO a boat without at least 2-3 light air sails is doomed to either drift or motor when the breeze drops into the sub 5kt range. And personally, I'd trade just about anything onboard, but for my drysuit, big anchor, or radar, for a versatile light air sail or quiver of such sails to choose from. Especially given their price if you pick them up used, & or improvise.

Sounds right.

But any periods of 3 or 4 knots at all -- "good sailing" in very light air -- and you can forget about 200 miles days, even on a 90 foot Swan

As to WHY so many people neglect light air sails -- I can answer that question. Most ARC participants come from up here. We don't have any light air up here Well, very little. Get your boat sailing well with white sails, have a good diesel engine, and light air sails for our latitudes do get low on the list. I don't have any, for example. Not yet. With my normal white sails I can sail at 2/3 to 3/4 of true wind speed right down to about nothing, as long as the wind is not too far behind the beam. That's OK for me up here. Below that I just motor -- I have about 1000 miles range with my tankage.

Before going to lower latitudes or doing something like the ARC, I would add light air sails, though. It's also on the list of the things to do to the boat if I find myself with money I don't know what to spend on The expensive part will the sprit. I've already got an excellent pole (surplus from a TP52).

Storage of sails is a problem on my boat, like on many cruising boats. They are large, and my boat has little deck storage. I carry two different principle headsails, and the one not in use occupies a cabin and is in the way. When I add light air sails, this problem will be even worse.

[Scott Berg]

Good topic; hi Evans... we have a 48' waterline on our 60' ketch; we average 185 under sail in good conditions; best day ever was 273 but the Gulf Stream helped <grin>. We have averaged 200 for 3 days but had 20kt reaching conditions where the waterline made a huge difference. Racing is very different of course...