2013 Lagoon 380 or 2010 Maverick 400?

[CountingCrows]

Hello Everyone,

If 2013 Lagoon 380 and 2010 Maverick 400 was the same price, which one would you choose?

Lagoon 380: Almost bare. Delivery October-2013.

Maverick 400: Fully loaded, 11KW genset, 30K + 16K BTU a/c, Watermaker, 40HP upgraded engine, Executive version, Dinghy, Solar panels, etc. Hull number less than 10. 1000 hours on both engines (together). Docked in my residence country.

I have seen Maverick and owner is an experienced sailor, seems to have maintained the boat well. Wants to get a bigger cat.

On a side note, I do not like owning used stuff. All my major purchases are brand new (cars, houses, etc).

Thanks,

CC

[downunder]

Originally Posted by CountingCrows

Hello Everyone,

If 2013 Lagoon 380 and 2010 Maverick 400 was the same price, which one would you choose?

Lagoon 380: Almost bare. Delivery October-2013.

Maverick 400: Fully loaded, 11KW genset, 30K + 16K BTU a/c, Watermaker, 40HP upgraded engine, Executive version, Dinghy, Solar panels, etc. Hull number less than 10. 1000 hours on both engines (together). Docked in my residence country.

I have seen Maverick and owner is an experienced sailor, seems to have maintained the boat well. Wants to get a bigger cat.

On a side note, I do not like owning used stuff. All my major purchases are brand new (cars, houses, etc).

Thanks,

CC

Maverick 400.

[CountingCrows]

Originally Posted by downunder

Maverick 400.

Tks downunder. Any particular reason?

[jostalli]

Originally Posted by CountingCrows

On a side note, I do not like owning used stuff. All my major purchases are brand new (cars, houses, etc).

Thanks,

CC

First I'll answer your question: Maverick.

Now, I believe most people would say they prefer brand new but since you say all your major purchases are brand new I have no choice but to assume you have not spent a lot of time studying personal finance.

[CountingCrows]

Originally Posted by jostalli

First I'll answer your question: Maverick.

Now, I believe most people would say they prefer brand new but since you say all your major purchases are brand new I have no choice but to assume you have not spent a lot of time studying personal finance.

Thank you jostalli,

Actually, not all my major purchases, but almost ALL my purchases are brand new.

I think you are forgetting something called WARRANTY.

[mbuckner]

Has a surveyor checked out the Maverick?

Also, Google up some Maverick owners reviews and comments ....

Research, research, and more research ... the Maverick should
come out ahead ...

Good luck ...

[CountingCrows]

Originally Posted by mbuckner

Has a surveyor checked out the Maverick?

Also, Google up some Maverick owners reviews and comments ....

Research, research, and more research ... the Maverick should
come out ahead ...

Good luck ...

Not yet, but I surely would hire a surveyor.

I think Maverick would not come out ahead. Lagoon has built thousands of cats, 30 years in business, naturally are more stable and has access to greater feedback from userbase. Maverick built 15 cats, 3 years in business?

My gut feeling is definitely against Maverick.

[jostalli]

Originally Posted by CountingCrows

Thank you jostalli,

Actually, not all my major purchases, but almost ALL my purchases are brand new.

I think you are forgetting something called WARRANTY.

I'm not forgetting anything. Spend some time on this forum and ask some Lagoon owners what they say about "WARRANTY". After sale service from Lagoon is horrible at best. It's the same with most production boat manufacturers.

[downunder]

Maverick, fully equipt with at least $75,000 worth of extras, larger motors all of which I would want although would prefer smaller genset. Haven't seen one in flesh but feedback on all sites I have seen has been good. Fairly recent design. Designer sailed his own vessel to Carribean.

At end of day, easy for you to checkout. If you like what you find, are comfortable with layout/setup why not, as you don't seem to have fixed ideas on either Lagoon or Mahle.

Get aboard and sail the Maverick, and then definitely get aboard a Lagoon and Mahle and you will then have your answer. You will prefer one of them. I suspect possibly, the Maverick but I haven't been aboard to be definitive.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...0-a-27064.html

You need to like the look or not. It reads/looks very functional vessel. Check out the electricial/machinery installations for quality, access, ease of maintaince. Important considerations which I have not seen.


Cheers

Look also on multihull4us site. Possibly more discussion there.

[CountingCrows]

Originally Posted by jostalli

I'm not forgetting anything. Spend some time on this forum and ask some Lagoon owners what they say about "WARRANTY". After sale service from Lagoon is horrible at best. It's the same with most production boat manufacturers.

Their aftersales might be bad. But it does not mean that I cannot sue them and get my rights (whereas on a used item, I do not have this right to begin with).

My friend's 80,000 kms BMW M5 needed a transmission change after 3 months of purchase. $25K he had to shell out. Cost of used car was $90K.

On the other hand, my brother had gearbox problems on his new car after 2 years. Replacement was free ($40K cost had it not been under warranty).

Same logic pretty much applies to everything else. Those of us who prefer brand new items, prefer it for a reason: Piece of mind when things go sour.

You should not go out and insult all consumers who prefer to buy new items with "lack of personal finance education".

[CountingCrows]

Things are not so clear-cut actually.

I have no possibility to experience Mahe or Lagoon. I have however seen Lipari 41 and I would prefer it to Maverick 400. I would prefer both to Lagoon 380 (given that they are all new).

Yes I did read all reviews, seen videos, pics, etc. Homework throughly done on both Mahe, Lagoon or Maverick.

But I must say, pictures or videos do not look nothing like the real thing in boats. So different.

Maverick I think had more than $125K extras on it. I forgot to list everything... inverter, liferaft, screecher, spinnaker, etc. Nonetheless, it looked too bulky to me (lets not forget I never owned a boat though)... and just used.

Hard to decide.

Thank you for your opinion.

CC

Originally Posted by downunder

Maverick, fully equipt with at least $75,000 worth of extras, larger motors all of which I would want although would prefer smaller genset. Haven't seen one in flesh but feedback on all sites I have seen has been good. Fairly recent design. Designer sailed his own vessel to Carribean.

At end of day, easy for you to checkout. If you like what you find, are comfortable with layout/setup why not, as you don't seem to have fixed ideas on either Lagoon or Mahle.

Get aboard and sail the Maverick, and then definitely get aboard a Lagoon and Mahle and you will then have your answer. You will prefer one of them. I suspect possibly, the Maverick but I haven't been aboard to be definitive.

You need to like the look or not. It reads/looks very functional vessel. Check out the electricial/machinery installations for quality, access, ease of maintaince. Important considerations which I have not seen.


Cheers

Look also on multihull4us site. Possibly more discussion there.

[D&D]

We'd probably go for the Maverick, but we might also suggest you take care to ensure those two vessels are really all your choices...

• Discount the warranty unless you are buying through a big Lagoon dealer AND you will be sailing within reasonable striking distance of that dealer's support infrastructure. The dealer, ond no-one else, will be your warranty support.
• The Lagoon 'pedigree' does, however, support choosing the L380 (or other Lagoon models!) both for the vast number of other Lagoon owners' knowledge and experience, as well as the greater liklihood that subsequent service providors will be familiar with your vessel design and equipment.
• All the added extras on the Maverick sound like they will be valuable to you...or, put another way, you will outlay a lot of loot to set up the bare L380.
• Sailing-wise we test-sailed both (the L380 and the M400) and found them comparable.
• Layout-wise we prefered the M400 over the L380, BUT the L400 -- There should be a few of these on the used market by now? -- was probably better still. Layout, of course, is a lot to do with personal preferences.
• It sounds like the M400 you're looking at was the one owned by the designer (Phil Southwell?) and, if so, that suggests to us it will be both well looked after and probably a cut above other Mavericks. We met Phil (admitedly only briefly) and found him very thoughtful and probably a good sailor. We also closely observed the Maverick factory process and it allows a fair amount of buyer-input; that becomes valuable to you because you might reasonably assume Phil, being both knowledgeable and local in Cape Town, was very much involved in his own build. You could also ask Phil about this directly?

We also struggled with the new vs old issue and we eventually resolved it in favour of a used vessel. Probably the best argument (confirmed by our experience, in a slightly different way!) for the used vessel is that the 'bugs' inherent in any new vessel should be well-and-truly worked out by the previous owner. The other big argument for going used is cost...and for us that was the killer issue as, instead of a new M400 or L400 or Seawind1250, we bought the L440 for quite a savings. The L440 was a much larger vessel with great 'blue water' reports (albeit still easily handled by two crew...and solo-sailed when underway) and it came with attractive layout features not available on the others. So when a near-new L440 (only 6 mos old!) became available at an attractive price, we immediately put down a deposit; secured a surveyor's report; and jumped aboard! Given the age of our vessel at the time of purchase, however, we took care to ensure warranty would apply. We were assured by our broker (Ancasta) that the warranty DID apply, only to then find that, notwithstanding MANY warranty issues appearing on our long (~14000nm) delivery voyage, the warranty support simply faded away to nothing.
So with all our experience as a proviso, we would also suggest you think about taking your used-vessel search to the next level. Seriously look at ALL alternatives, perhaps limiting yourself to boats <2yrs old so that you remain in the near-new category? You might find some amazing bargains in there!?!

Still, we're now delighted with our boat...and we wish you well in your choice!

[smj]

Absolutely hands down the Maverick. Better design better build and MUCH better value. The owner of Maverick seems to stand behind his product, the owner of Lagoon? Would you rather own a Ford or Maserati? Ford builds a ton of cars but I wonder which is better quality.

[D&D]

Originally Posted by smj

Absolutely hands down the Maverick. Better design better build and MUCH better value. The owner of Maverick seems to stand behind his product, the owner of Lagoon? Would you rather own a Ford or Maserati? Ford builds a ton of cars but I wonder which is better quality.

Maverick = Maserati?!? With great respect to your rights to your own view smj, in our view that is a very big stretch indeed.

Better design? Both Lagoon and Maverick boast solid designer pedigrees. Lagoon's VPLP are probably the higher profile (America's Cup winners, etc) with more vessels behind them, but Maverick's Phil Southwell brings some solid experience and results to his designs as well. Design is also a 'beauty-is-in-beholder' perspective. Some don't like the look of Lagoons and some don't like the look of Mavericks. Either way, hardly a clear outcome.

Better build? Perhaps the argument for Maverick might be something like 'greater personal attention and variation = greater individual result'...and for Lagoon might be 'greater automation and process control = greater control of critical outcomes'. The Maverick process offers a personalised outcome (not all that relevant when buying a used vessel though) whereas the Lagoon process offer a high degree of confidence over important processes. A visit to both factories could easily leave the visitor much happier in a Lagoon. In any event, both are basically production GRP-molded vessels...and in NO way comparable to Ford vs Maserati!

Better value? Maverick wins on the OP's stated choices...hence our slecting the Maverick as well, for purposes of this post. For our vessel choice, however, a 6 mos old L440 absolutely overwhelmed the other available choices (including the M400) for value.

[CountingCrows]

Thank you for this very valuable input. Greatly appreciated.

* Lagoon dealer is very old & established here. With effing pirates just couple of hundred miles away, saling to my home country in Med is not going to be a possibility. I reckon I would benefit from the warranty here.

* How did you assume the M400 is owned by the designer? I am in Dubai. M400 hull number I specified was less than 10. It is actually between 2 and 5, to be more precise.

* Definitely very valid point about bugs being ironed out by the owner on a used boat. He mentioned one of the engines was leaking on delivery and yanmar replaced it. He also put in a new gearbox recently.

* I do not have many options here. There are only 4 cats in the entire country, and I have seen all. L440, FP 48, FP41, M400. FP 48 and L440 was 2007-2008, they both looked VERY used to me. FP41 and M400 were both 2010. FP41 looked almost brand new, not so for M400.

I would like to buy a brand new boat, and since I am a beginner, I want it to be small (costs less, easier to sail, etc). I have only FP and Lagoon options (no other boat builder has a dealer here). I did not like FP dealer here much, he did not offer any discounts, and at the end equally equipped FP36 cost $50K more than an L380! So I totally discounted FP. Lagoon dealer was honest and straightforward.

I do not want to venture into used cat market at all. It just happenned that an M400 is available here, and is priced equal to a new L380 cost to me. If the Lagoons were not so archaic looking and if they did not have the design defects (helmstation entry from port side as opposed to cockpit, anchor chains around trampoline area, mainsail sheets reaching to the floor of cockpit instead of bimini top, etc), I would not have considered Maverick. Or to say more bluntly, If a new Mahe 36 was same price as a used M400, I would have chosen new Mahe 36 without doubt.

But... no matter if I buy M400 or L380... I know I will get to love it, all thanks to "cognitive dissonance" process of our brain -- when people recognize inconsistent views within themselves, they tend to alter their thinking to remove the conflict. Like valuing a product more highly after buying it. You cannot think of a product you bought as of a lesser value, and be a smart buyer at the same time. So you will adapt to value it more and love it... especially when you are spending half a million dollars!

CC

Originally Posted by D&D

We'd probably go for the Maverick, but we might also suggest you take care to ensure those two vessels are really all your choices...

• Discount the warranty unless you are buying through a big Lagoon dealer AND you will be sailing within reasonable striking distance of that dealer's support infrastructure. The dealer, ond no-one else, will be your warranty support.
• The Lagoon 'pedigree' does, however, support choosing the L380 (or other Lagoon models!) both for the vast number of other Lagoon owners' knowledge and experience, as well as the greater liklihood that subsequent service providors will be familiar with your vessel design and equipment.
• All the added extras on the Maverick sound like they will be valuable to you...or, put another way, you will outlay a lot of loot to set up the bare L380.
• Sailing-wise we test-sailed both (the L380 and the M400) and found them comparable.
• Layout-wise we prefered the M400 over the L380, BUT the L400 -- There should be a few of these on the used market by now? -- was probably better still. Layout, of course, is a lot to do with personal preferences.
• It sounds like the M400 you're looking at was the one owned by the designer (Phil Southwell?) and, if so, that suggests to us it will be both well looked after and probably a cut above other Mavericks. We met Phil (admitedly only briefly) and found him very thoughtful and probably a good sailor. We also closely observed the Maverick factory process and it allows a fair amount of buyer-input; that becomes valuable to you because you might reasonably assume Phil, being both knowledgeable and local in Cape Town, was very much involved in his own build. You could also ask Phil about this directly?

We also struggled with the new vs old issue and we eventually resolved it in favour of a used vessel. Probably the best argument (confirmed by our experience, in a slightly different way!) for the used vessel is that the 'bugs' inherent in any new vessel should be well-and-truly worked out by the previous owner. The other big argument for going used is cost...and for us that was the killer issue as, instead of a new M400 or L400 or Seawind1250, we bought the L440 for quite a savings. The L440 was a much larger vessel with great 'blue water' reports (albeit still easily handled by two crew...and solo-sailed when underway) and it came with attractive layout features not available on the others. So when a near-new L440 (only 6 mos old!) became available at an attractive price, we immediately put down a deposit; secured a surveyor's report; and jumped aboard! Given the age of our vessel at the time of purchase, however, we took care to ensure warranty would apply. We were assured by our broker (Ancasta) that the warranty DID apply, only to then find that, notwithstanding MANY warranty issues appearing on our long (~14000nm) delivery voyage, the warranty support simply faded away to nothing.
So with all our experience as a proviso, we would also suggest you think about taking your used-vessel search to the next level. Seriously look at ALL alternatives, perhaps limiting yourself to boats <2yrs old so that you remain in the near-new category? You might find some amazing bargains in there!?!

Still, we're now delighted with our boat...and we wish you well in your choice!