A True End to the Multi vs Mono Debate

[smj]

Originally Posted by minaret

In 30' seas rolling down the swells, yes I would prefer to be zipped into my immersion suit in a good quality soft life raft with epirb and plb and vhf and all the other moder SAR amenities to rolling about in a small dark hard compartment half full of sharp corners, toxic water, and potentially large, heavy, or sharp objects like broken glass, loose batteries, floor panels, a potentially broken loose engine, etc. etc. Sounds like a great way to get beat to death by the contents of your own boat to me. Fine for race boats, but given the amount of gear and systems aboard the average cruiser, I wouldn't want to do it in most without serious forethought and planning.

I would think the inverted multihull with quite a bit of water in it would have a much nicer motion than the life raft. As 44c said you should be able to find a dry place away from the toxic waste.

[redcobra]

But can you find a slip for it?

[Intentional Drifter]

Originally Posted by foolishsailor

Speaking of overturned cats, has any bright spark thought of painting the underside of the cat, not the hulls, a life raft yellow/ orange so that it would be more visible in adverse conditions?

My St Francis 44 came that way from the factory, along with jacklines, pre-rigged. There's two escape hatches, one in each bow. The jacklines terminate close to the escape hatch.

While I would never want to try life in a dark, inverted hull, I think that would be preferable to the raft.

ID

[Boatguy30]

Hey, no joke a well equipped offshore multihull will have hammocks aboard and padeyes fitted to hang them from above the inverted waterline. Mine will.

Sailingcatamarans.blogspot.com

[Lagoon4us]

Mono or Multi every situation of disaster or reason for an eventual abandonment of your boat will be for different reason. Fire is a very good reason to hop in the dinghy towing or carrying the liferaft, hitting a container is not, until flooding makes it in-evitable.

Flipping a large Multi will probably have tragic consequences for at least some of the crew, the seaway will likely be running high, the thought process running low.

Chances and likelihood of any of this happening are so very slim it's not worth procrastinating about.

We should all have liferafts, Multi's should also have escape hatches, lifelines wires strung or harness points under the bridge deck. Also i've seen anti-skid applied beneath the bridge-deck!

How we may fare will depend on pure luck, preparations may mean nothing.

Mono's or Multi's??? They are all boats...love them all.

[Palarran]

Originally Posted by Lagoon4us

Mono or Multi every situation of disaster or reason for an eventual abandonment of your boat will be for different reason. Fire is a very good reason to hop in the dinghy towing or carrying the liferaft, hitting a container is not, until flooding makes it in-evitable.

Flipping a large Multi will probably have tragic consequences for at least some of the crew, the seaway will likely be running high, the thought process running low.

Chances and likelihood of any of this happening are so very slim it's not worth procrastinating about.

We should all have liferafts, Multi's should also have escape hatches, lifelines wires strung or harness points under the bridge deck. Also i've seen anti-skid applied beneath the bridge-deck!

How we may fare will depend on pure luck, preparations may mean nothing.

Mono's or Multi's??? They are all boats...love them all.

G-R-E-A-T Post. The infatuation with flipping multihulls has really worn thin don't you think?

[shorebird]

I have read "Lost," "117 days adrift" and "Survive the Savage Sea."
The only one that had loss of life was "lost" and was a multihull, with both the captain and one of the two crew losing their lives after their trimaran capsized and drifted inverted off the PNW coast. Therefore, statistically, multihullls are more dangerous.
(Never mind that the captain was a Christian fanatic, and threw away most of their food and water after capsizing so God's "will" would prevail. )

[minaret]

Originally Posted by shorebird

I have read "Lost," "117 days adrift" and "Survive the Savage Sea."
The only one that had loss of life was "lost" and was a multihull, with both the captain and one of the two crew losing their lives after their trimaran capsized and drifted inverted off the PNW coast. Therefore, statistically, multihullls are more dangerous.
(Never mind that the captain was a Christian fanatic, and threw away most of their food and water after capsizing so God's "will" would prevail. )

I'm pretty sure the fatality in that case actually jumped overboard and drowned himself. They drifted a long time and it sounds like they both went a bit off their heads. Maybe he just couldn't bear to listen to the skippers ravings anymore?
I agree that in the conditions required to cause such an incident, there are a lot of factors to consider and any planning can quickly come to naught. Nowhere is safe really, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't put some thought and discussion into it. A raft clearly isn't ideal, but I often hear multi owners say they would ride out this catastrophic scenario in their hulls as if they'll be sitting in the lap of luxury, "warm and dry". I think the reality would be a lot more like being inside a washing machine. That volume of water rolling around inside the boat could easily blow out a bulkhead in large enough waves, think what that would do to your body. It would be like being rolled in surf over and over with no way out, in a small dark space full of pointy objects. I think in really big waves it might be surprisingly easy to drown inside a half filled hull, or just succumb to exhaustion and cold. It would be impossible to stay dry, there would be waves inside the boat as well as outside! I'm not saying this is not a viable method of staying alive, I'm just saying I think many multi owners drastically overestimate the level of survivability in a capsized hull.

[Lagoon4us]

Originally Posted by Palarran

G-R-E-A-T Post. The infatuation with flipping multihulls has really worn thin don't you think?

Thank you, AGREE there!!!!

The problem with us human's is we love to be scared, someone wants to head off onto the ocean they read the classics, Moitessier etc and draw conclusions of what if's based on old unsuitable boats going into unsuitable areas with largely unsuitable crew, read sometimes nutters.

I'd prefer to talk with people that have done it, plan accordingly and use every bit of technology or information that i can afford or is relevant to my trip.

Most cruising folk don't write books but they will share a drink and advice freely.

If people wish to head off on a windsurfer around Cape Horn well good on them, this is Darwin's Theory at work!!

The majority of boats that have gone 'arse up' on our coast are Prawn Trawlers and most of their crew don't wear life jackets, usually they are found clinging to flotsam of one kind or another.

Racing Multi's on this coast have flipped (A few Nicol's) and were on the tail-end of a Cyclone heading for a specific point ie THE FINISH!!!!.

In the real world a cruiser would have been long ago sitting in a creek drinking rum, and surfing CF....... At sea they would have run for it away from the blow.

Modern Mono's on this coast have hit reef, usually surviving with deep keel damage. Multi's same experience.

We are modern sailors its time to throw away the loonie's books, there is quite a few.

One exception would be Hiscock's books for his time he knew what it was about, he made use of all available technology of the time. Cheers Frank

[cat man do]

Possibly the best of all would be to have a liferaft inflated and attached between on the upside down cats / tri's hullsl.

This way it moves across the water at a slower pace, is protected somewhat from wave and wind action by the hulls and offers a far larger target for rescuers to spot.

You also have access a few short steps away to water and food that will obviously, still be in the main vessel.

Survivability will be increased considerable compared to blowing across the ocean in a trumped up innertube.

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by minaret

I'm pretty sure the fatality in that case actually jumped overboard and drowned himself. They drifted a long time and it sounds like they both went a bit off their heads. Maybe he just couldn't bear to listen to the skippers ravings anymore?
I agree that in the conditions required to cause such an incident, there are a lot of factors to consider and any planning can quickly come to naught. Nowhere is safe really, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't put some thought and discussion into it. A raft clearly isn't ideal, but I often hear multi owners say they would ride out this catastrophic scenario in their hulls as if they'll be sitting in the lap of luxury, "warm and dry". I think the reality would be a lot more like being inside a washing machine. That volume of water rolling around inside the boat could easily blow out a bulkhead in large enough waves, think what that would do to your body. It would be like being rolled in surf over and over with no way out, in a small dark space full of pointy objects. I think in really big waves it might be surprisingly easy to drown inside a half filled hull, or just succumb to exhaustion and cold. It would be impossible to stay dry, there would be waves inside the boat as well as outside! I'm not saying this is not a viable method of staying alive, I'm just saying I think many multi owners drastically overestimate the level of survivability in a capsized hull.

Agreed.
But I will keep the cat.

[Lagoon4us]

Originally Posted by minaret

I'm pretty sure the fatality in that case actually jumped overboard and drowned himself. They drifted a long time and it sounds like they both went a bit off their heads. Maybe he just couldn't bear to listen to the skippers ravings anymore?
I agree that in the conditions required to cause such an incident, there are a lot of factors to consider and any planning can quickly come to naught. Nowhere is safe really, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't put some thought and discussion into it. A raft clearly isn't ideal, but I often hear multi owners say they would ride out this catastrophic scenario in their hulls as if they'll be sitting in the lap of luxury, "warm and dry". I think the reality would be a lot more like being inside a washing machine. That volume of water rolling around inside the boat could easily blow out a bulkhead in large enough waves, think what that would do to your body. It would be like being rolled in surf over and over with no way out, in a small dark space full of pointy objects. I think in really big waves it might be surprisingly easy to drown inside a half filled hull, or just succumb to exhaustion and cold. It would be impossible to stay dry, there would be waves inside the boat as well as outside! I'm not saying this is not a viable method of staying alive, I'm just saying I think many multi owners drastically overestimate the level of survivability in a capsized hull.

Me/myself consider a flipped multi to be a huge piece of available flotsom, nothing more and nothing less.

I have built and owned a string of Joe Adam's designed monohulls, i would always feel safe in any of them HOWEVER my requirements have changed and cat it is.

All this talk of ultimate disaster needs to be tempered with some reality, i don't intend putting us in the situation, i shall not round the Horn on a Windsurfer!

Lightweight extremely fast cats are no different to the Skiff like mono's capable of sailing 20 plus knots. They need quick thinking strong crew to have any degree of safety.

Survival in an upturned Cat is not thought of as the cartoon depicts, more like hanging onto a huge piece of bucking smashed up flotsom would be more the likelihood.

[Palarran]

That's another couple great posts Lagoon4us. I can't agree with you more about the need for sailors, or posters, to come into the real 21st century. The actual multihullers are the worst btw. We collectively need to stop hypothizing the worst case situations. There must be 100 posts about cats flipping so far on this site. Like will this one add anything new? Do we really have to debate it one more time. The mono guys really have lost any interest in the subject. Planning on bringing hammocks and having attachment points on the floor so you can camp out while inverted is really silly. I'd spend much more time figuring out how I can get those hammocks to span two coconut trees.

[Lagoon4us]

Originally Posted by Palarran

That's another couple great posts Lagoon4us. I can't agree with you more about the need for sailors, or posters, to come into the real 21st century. The actual multihullers are the worst btw. We collectively need to stop hypothizing the worst case situations. There must be 100 posts about cats flipping so far on this site. Like will this one add anything new? Do we really have to debate it one more time. The mono guys really have lost any interest in the subject. Planning on bringing hammocks and having attachment points on the floor so you can camp out while inverted is really silly. I'd spend much more time figuring out how I can get those hammocks to span two coconut trees.

An afternoon dinghy or small cat sailing in windy, choppy conditions will give anyone a slight clue as to what a tossing, slippery, gel-coated hull is like to get hold of.

Maybe we sail in nice places where this crap doesn't happen. Maybe it's common place to see inverted multi's and sunken mono's in the area's these other people hail from.

It's strange also that it isn't just a sailing mono/multi problem, i've seen many power boaters shunned simply because they don't fall within the 'TRIBAL' requirements of the clan.

To each his own and i gain no satisfaction isolating any cruiser that is out there, we all have one common denominator .... We enjoy our life.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by foolishsailor

Speaking of overturned cats, has any bright spark thought of painting the underside of the cat, not the hulls, a life raft yellow/ orange so that it would be more visible in adverse conditions?

Yes. And non-skid paint. (Although I admit that was partly (OK mostly) because it was easier than fairing under the bridgedeck to the point I could paint it in high gloss)