Anti-Capsize Technology and Systems

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Manateeman

There are no training wheels. Cats flip. Usually a total loss. That’s the risk and one of the reasons I started the thread.
Sticking your head out the hatch “occasionally “ doesn’t seem to work .
Look at the excellent credentials of some of the sailors.
Fast, powerful cat ...faster any boat = faster into trouble.
Big = larger forces. Sometimes equals less time to recover.
If you feel the need for speed, you pay one way or the other.
We believe some technology will help.
The M crew.

Training wheels was a joke.

I believe technology will help.

Of course there’s a way to automatically de-power a sailing rig. I don’t know what that way is yet, but nothing is impossible.

The old wetware (brain) is still a very good way to do this. Reef early for possible bad conditions.

But, if caught with your pants down, having potential automatic help to depower is better than not having it.

Capsize is a risk with high performance. Just like crashing that new Lamborghini after it rains is a risk.

That’s what makes it fun.

I’d also rather have risk of capsize in the 2% of sketchy moments than wishing for more wind in 98% of my other time on the boat.

So I’m with you here. It’s a good thread. If I ever get my rig up (self deprecation), I do hope to incorporate a type of anti capsize strategy eventually. Will start with over zealous reefing though

[Training Wheels]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Training wheels was a joke.

What’d I do?

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Training Wheels

What’d I do?

At least I acknowledged the reality of your existence. Ha ha ha.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Manateeman

There are no training wheels. Cats flip. Usually a total loss. That’s the risk and one of the reasons I started the thread.

Sticking your head out the hatch “occasionally “ doesn’t seem to work .

Look at the excellent credentials of some of the sailors.

Fast, powerful cat ...faster any boat = faster into trouble.

Big = larger forces. Sometimes equals less time to recover.

If you feel the need for speed, you pay one way or the other.

We believe some technology will help.

The M crew.

How much speed is to much speed.......asking for a friend[emoji16]

[Manateeman]

What’s the difference between the speed of a manatee and a potato.
You can roll the potato along.
We sail so slowly the manatee crew can’t outrun their own gas cloud which can cause mental confusion as well. We admit some speed is advantageous.
Let us examine hull design.
A manatee in a beer barrel cannot capsize no matter how high the wind or waves.
Which is conclusive proof speed and low displacement are the causes of vessel instability.
The diet and quantity of food consumed by crew also affects ship balance. Beer should be stowed and consumed equally from both hulls. Buttered popcorn, French fries and potato chip spills are a hazard to rapid sail handling. These dangers are not often recognized for their potentially disastrous results. Capsize prevention is the duty of all crew members.
Sufficient napkins for pizza night is the responsibility of the captain.
Technology is not the only cure to capsize prevention.
Captain Mark

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Manateeman

There are no training wheels...

There are - it’s called reefing!

I don’t know if a mast not designed for it could handle the load, but how about a bladder at the top of the mast and a compressed air hose and pressurised tank in the main beam? Once a certain heel angle is exceeded (80*?) the air is released and the bladder inflates. The cat will still have positive righting moment and while difficult it should be possible to stow the sails so the force on the sails is removed. Then the cat comes down onto both hulls and capsize averted. A one time save, as the bladder would have to be deflated and removed after use. Crazy?

[Buzzman]

Originally Posted by toolbar

I am interested in building something along the lines of the Upsideup or the ACS mentioned above for my private use.

The component I am least sure about is the actuator needed to release the sheets. I could only think of using a Harken cleat mounted on a hinge, that is held closed until the mechanism is triggered (a very similar solution as offered by both companies).

Something simple like a door lock solenoid https://www.google.com/search?q=door...=lnms&tbm=isch could hold the plate down and release it - but I couldn't find anything rated IP65.

How would you build something like this?

Paul

There is a simple 'automated' version of the ACS system mentioned above drawn and described in Jim Brown's 'Case for the Cruising Multihull'.
Essentially, as you have contemplated, mounting the cam-cleat for the mainsheet on a hinge, but the tail of the hinge is held down with multiple bungies, stretched down to a retaining 'comb'. Depending on wind strength, you use one, two, three, four whatever bungies...

The idea is that a gust is MUCH more than the steady/background wind strength, and so pulls on the main, on the boom, on the sheet, and against the bungies, stretching them so the hinge flips up, and the sheet pops out of the now vertical cam cleat.

Really simple. Adjustable by skipper for wind strength. Enables you to leave the cockpti to go below without fear of a sudden (unseen) gust flipping the boat.

[Training Wheels]

And hopefully there isn’t anybody in the path of the boom when it decides to release.

[catsketcher]

Originally Posted by fxykty

There are - it’s called reefing!

I don’t know if a mast not designed for it could handle the load, but how about a bladder at the top of the mast and a compressed air hose and pressurised tank in the main beam? Once a certain heel angle is exceeded (80*?) the air is released and the bladder inflates. The cat will still have positive righting moment and while difficult it should be possible to stow the sails so the force on the sails is removed. Then the cat comes down onto both hulls and capsize averted. A one time save, as the bladder would have to be deflated and removed after use. Crazy?

This has been tried a few times. One person who tried it was Donald Crowhurst, but his system was never needed ( and didn't work). IIRC there was another system used on a small cat that worked for a while then broke, inverting the cat. Apache Sundancer (A 40ft ish Macalpine cat) capsized in a Round Britain race in the 60s or early 70s. It had a big disc on its masthead. It stayed on its side for a while before the disc broke off. I don't think the idea will be viable for any length of time. The weight of a bag and inflation parphenalia will cause muchg worse pitching due to increased rotational inertia.

An excellent book, I wish I could find is "The capsize bugaboo". It goes through all the attempts similar to what we are discussing that were developed in the late 70s and early 80s. Capsize was a much bigger problem and much more in sailors minds back then. But cats became better and less likely to capsize, so the focus has dimmed but we can still learn from what has been tried and discarded.

Jim Brown's idea of a sheet cleat led to a pivoting cleat was probably developed by a builder or owner of a CSK cat, as the idea is featured in Rudy Choy's excellent book on cat design. CSK cats were very thin and could caosize in winds modern cats would still have plenty of reserve. So they raced with full crews - or mostly.

Golden Cockerel was a CSK cat that capsized with a full crew, so the mast was shortened and it raced across an ocean.

The idea of a fuse has been around for decades, as has the idea of a limiting rope to allow a certain amount of dump. I have seen a mainsheet trip line (led inside) demonstrated in a 40ft racing tri in the 80s.

I think the main point of difference between then and now, is that modern electronics are much better and IMUs are very cheap. Also drone and battlebot technology has produced actuators that hobbyists can use. So that is why I would suggest reading through what has been done, but focussing on the modern achievements in electronics to model what a good helm does, ease sheet and (usually) bear away.

Cheers

Phil

[CatLove]

Yes, Jim Brown , Rudy Choy and other old designs tried and weren't that successful in creating capsize recovery designs.
Let's move a little closer to present times and remember Pete Goss' Firebird catamaran completed an Atlantic crossing. Not a cruising cat and not large by any standards but still a 27ft ocean crossing cat .
There was a very simple and successful capsize recovery system on the Firebird . I only saw and touched this cat once in the flesh about 20 years ago but here's a video of the capsize recovery procedure :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=655COFngiQA

[Cavalier MK2]

The Gougeon 32 used a similar system, the small size of these cats is a big part of the approach as loads increase with size of boat and seas. It gets harder to retain the rig in storm conditions on larger vessels.

The Ruiz system of controlled flooding and winching end over using a water bag system shown by Brown and the book Phil mentioned actually does work but has only been implemented in a few boats due to the usual extra costs and work. I think a variation using a kite sail to pull the boat over after flooding either bows or sterns depending on design could work too. Then you also have a sail if the rig is gone to head for port.

All these systems rely on initial crew survival as they aren't currently automated so having your boat set up for inversion survival is an important step, Brown did a nice job of discussing that in " The Case for the Cruising Trimaran" too.

[Buzzman]

IIRC Ian Farrier discussed a similar principles methodology for his smaller trimarans, which involved releasing the aka retaining bolts so the 'in water' ama folded, which would have the same principle as the Orion Firebird method in that it first releases the 'in water' shrouds.

I have also contemplated using some sort of 'sheer leg' (perhaps a beefed up whisker pole) with a pulley on the end and a line rove through it attached to a weighted water bag. The idea being that the pole is attached almost vertically to the outside of the upper (out of water) ama, pointing in the same direction as the daggar boards, so as crew hauls on the full or partially full waterbag, the tension and mass as it attempts to leave the water provides rotational energy to flip the boat back up right.

As I'm sure those who've capsized a smaller boat know, at first it doesn't come up easily, but once the 'suction' of the main is breached, it comes up really quickly, so part of my theory was to have the main on slides, with built in downhaul, so you could haul the main 'down' while the boat was horizontal, thus reducing the effort required to flip it, and taking much of the strain off the rigging.

Big issue with all these ideas (Orion, Brown, Farrier, mine) is that it presupposes the rig is still standing and able to do it's thing. Murphy's law being what it is...

I've also investigated adding an in-mast airline to a small, pre-fitted 'airbag', that could be inflated from the deck using small O2 canisters like those used in paintball skirmish (the cheapest small canisters I could find with decent capacity).

The idea of this 'airbag' is that it would be hauled up on a halyard, with a 'shoe' on the face/front edge of the mast into which it 'docked' (to hold it still and in place once inflated) and to enable lowering it and refolding the airbag back into it's launch capsule (after deployment and re-version).

Obviously you don't want to be climbing the mast to remove something attached while the mast was horizontal, which was my initial thinking, but it's feasible if the main can be manually lowered (while mast is horizontal) to detach the main halyard and attach it to an airbag, or a lifejacket, and haul it to the top of the mast.

That's kind of my 'minimalist' approach. In the absence of dedicated 'systems'. You could potentially even haul the lifejacket to the masthead if the mast was in the water. Might be tricky inverted, but still a possibility.

But it would still be helpful to have the shrouds rigged for 'orion-style' restrained release.

I hope to experiment with some of these ideas in the not too distant future.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Buzzman

IIRC Ian Farrier discussed a similar principles methodology for his smaller trimarans, which involved releasing the aka retaining bolts so the 'in water' ama folded, which would have the same principle as the Orion Firebird method in that it first releases the 'in water' shrouds.

I have also contemplated using some sort of 'sheer leg' (perhaps a beefed up whisker pole) with a pulley on the end and a line rove through it attached to a weighted water bag. The idea being that the pole is attached almost vertically to the outside of the upper (out of water) ama, pointing in the same direction as the daggar boards, so as crew hauls on the full or partially full waterbag, the tension and mass as it attempts to leave the water provides rotational energy to flip the boat back up right.

As I'm sure those who've capsized a smaller boat know, at first it doesn't come up easily, but once the 'suction' of the main is breached, it comes up really quickly, so part of my theory was to have the main on slides, with built in downhaul, so you could haul the main 'down' while the boat was horizontal, thus reducing the effort required to flip it, and taking much of the strain off the rigging.

Big issue with all these ideas (Orion, Brown, Farrier, mine) is that it presupposes the rig is still standing and able to do it's thing. Murphy's law being what it is...

I've also investigated adding an in-mast airline to a small, pre-fitted 'airbag', that could be inflated from the deck using small O2 canisters like those used in paintball skirmish (the cheapest small canisters I could find with decent capacity).

The idea of this 'airbag' is that it would be hauled up on a halyard, with a 'shoe' on the face/front edge of the mast into which it 'docked' (to hold it still and in place once inflated) and to enable lowering it and refolding the airbag back into it's launch capsule (after deployment and re-version).

Obviously you don't want to be climbing the mast to remove something attached while the mast was horizontal, which was my initial thinking, but it's feasible if the main can be manually lowered (while mast is horizontal) to detach the main halyard and attach it to an airbag, or a lifejacket, and haul it to the top of the mast.

That's kind of my 'minimalist' approach. In the absence of dedicated 'systems'. You could potentially even haul the lifejacket to the masthead if the mast was in the water. Might be tricky inverted, but still a possibility.

But it would still be helpful to have the shrouds rigged for 'orion-style' restrained release.

I hope to experiment with some of these ideas in the not too distant future.

I expect that if you don’t have something already at the masthead that will prevent the rig going past horizontal, that the turning moment of the hulls coming to vertical will have enough energy to keep rotating the boat until the boat is fully upside down. No late deployed airbag will help at that point.

[CatLove]

mast must be very very sturdy. Otherwise it breaks like a toothpick when it hits the water with the buoyancy preventing the top from sinking. Synthetic shrouds must be very very strong (also chainplates) otherwise they snap when the boat recovers and the mast swings back

[Cavalier MK2]

In a nod to Murphy I'd suggest planning total capsize recovery around the mast being gone. This uses the advanced methods presented by Ramsey who suggested Murphy was a raving optimist. The advantage of this is you can always disconnect the rig if it survives and use it as a drogue until later recovery. Being able to raise your mast is important to this bonus feature (lucky accident- Ramsey). Some advanced theorists like Richard Woods once suggested it was better not to capsize as agitated seawater tends to turn into foam etc... making inversion in enclosed spaces less enjoyable. This is a nice thought and excellent advice but I'd suggest putting in a dry space in case Ramsey's wild thoughts are correct

After all, the batteries may go out in your gizmos.