Are Dagger Boards Worth it?

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

What about dagger foils? This is a foil that extends from the ends of the hydrofoil to extend it and vary the surface area to allow foiling at lower speeds (light wind) or to counter heel to some degree.

This would be nice to get on foil in 10-12 knots but also be able to reduce drag at higher speeds (foils in) or retract them as well for docking.

Do NOT talk about these!!!

You will add another 2 years to my build…. Ha ha ha.

I have been dreaming of making a set of these. For years.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by captmob

I raced Cats for years in the late 70’s Hobie 18 changed everything. Excellent engineering and much improved handling. A little learning curve on tacking but keep the boards. Just my humble opinion.

Right.

In early 1990's and 2000's even better boards and design. Now it's all foiling boards.

Daggerboards really help which is why all racing cats that can point well have them.

When racing singlehanded we usually leave boards down most of the time (too many other things to do) but on a long downwind spinnaker run it's best to have your boards up at least half way

Wind was 18-20 knots in upwind photo which explains why I had trouble getting the spinnaker all the way in.

Boat weight is 300 lbs

Daggerboards still down in other photo due to short course.

Daggerboards on the Nacra 17 at that time about 4' long.

I had 2 Hobie 16's without boards and 2 Nacras with boards.

There's no comparison.

You should have boards even on a cruising cat because it's nice to be able to point when you need to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlzX-TpQus4

[macieknan]

Foils are fascinating, but i likely wont live long enough to see them on a cruising cat. Look up G4 sea trials before Gunboat bankruptcy. No one sane would put their kids on a boat that could go from 30kn to zero. Foils are also expensive, break a lot and are a wash in low speeds.

Now for a fun cats look up Moths, Waszp, F101, Skeeta, UFO and the Flying Mantis. These look like a ton of fun. Not something you would choose to put a refrigerator on though...

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by macieknan

Foils are fascinating, but i likely wont live long enough to see them on a cruising cat. Look up G4 sea trials before Gunboat bankruptcy. No one sane would put their kids on a boat that could go from 30kn to zero. Foils are also expensive, break a lot and are a wash in low speeds.

Now for a fun cats look up Moths, Waszp, F101, Skeeta, UFO and the Flying Mantis. These look like a ton of fun. Not something you would choose to put a refrigerator on though...

But you are neglecting one little detail. Foil assist. That can be like the boat weighing thousands of pounds less.

[macieknan]

Fair enough, but we would quickly descent to exotic high performance builds, not cruising cats per se... closest i can think of within the performance cruising category would be catana with curved daggerboards.

If i was a rich man....

[macieknan]

... i should add.. On the 59, the foil effect is worth 500kg at a speed of 15 knots

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by macieknan

Fair enough, but we would quickly descent to exotic high performance builds, not cruising cats per se... closest i can think of within the performance cruising category would be catana with curved daggerboards.

If i was a rich man....

Or if you were a really stupid man like me, you could “just build one.” Ha ha ha

A 50 foot Catana weighs 7000 pounds more than my boat. That’s why I have been so tempted by these foils. So very tempted.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by macieknan

... i should add.. On the 59, the foil effect is worth 500kg at a speed of 15 knots

That’s a bit of a bummer. Of course you could change a lot of things. There are lots of variables there. I have not done the math. I had enough math to do already. Lol

[macieknan]

Tones of variables and a lot of math, for sure, preferably before spending $$$$ on a foil that could prove net negative at speeds under 6kn. At least make it fully retractable

[seandepagnier]

Originally Posted by macieknan

Foils are fascinating, but i likely wont live long enough to see them on a cruising cat. Look up G4 sea trials before Gunboat bankruptcy. No one sane would put their kids on a boat that could go from 30kn to zero. Foils are also expensive, break a lot and are a wash in low speeds.

What about a boat with top speed of 15 knots, but it gets up on foil at only 6 knots?

This has a much larger foil than racing boat and also can support more weight for cruising.

So although this boat would not be much faster than non-foiling boats, it would have the advantage of flying over the chop making beating to wind in certain situations much more comfortable. It would also be able to get on foil under electric power from the energy from the solar panels (in full sun without battery drain)

[Cynara]

Take an airplane

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Phyrcooler

Which is why I brought up the HH44 OC/SC boats. From their marketing, it would appear both boats are identical except the mini-keels vs. dagger boards. (Likewise the HH50 - but I’m more interested in 42’ - 45’ boats. I just wish they’d done the helm on the HH44 like the HH50. I much prefer a slightly elevated helm vs back-of-the-bus, trying to see around and through the cabin as in the HH44 or Seawind 1370 .)

They’re not identical at all - there’s a 30% price increase to buy the daggerboard version, as they also change a bunch of other things in the build. So no real way to compare the two.

[Dave_S]

I had a pretty hard look at foils for foil assist on my boat. My boat is 7200kg on an average day and 48' and sails pretty well as is, however more must be better right.

I know it can't fly, you need a much higher performance boat to do that. As it turns out foil assist would have some benifit but only in a smallish window of conditions. Best opportunity for benifit is a T foil on the rudder. The main benifit here is to reduce pitching. The foil has an angle of attack of 0° but when the bow is up, the foil has lift and tries to level the boat. The same but opposite if it is bow down, so it gives a smoother ride and robs less speed. Crudely it would behave similarly to a longer boat.

[Phyrcooler]

Originally Posted by fxykty

They’re not identical at all - there’s a 30% price increase to buy the daggerboard version, as they also change a bunch of other things in the build. So no real way to compare the two.

Reportedly the hull form is identical, linear measurements are the same per their website - including not only hull dimensions, but also mast height, and sail plan; weights are pretty close - with ironically the dagger board being roughly 1500 lbs heavier per their specs (lightship). So, I personally still think it would be a very interesting matchup, and as about as close to an apples to apples comparison as you could create between mini-keels and dagger boards. I’m not advocating for either boat, nor one hull form vs. the other.

[macieknan]

QUOTE=Dave_S;3655790]I had a pretty hard look at foils for foil assist on my boat. My boat is 7200kg on an average day and 48' and sails pretty well as is...[/QUOTE]

Awesome performance boat. Dave already made choices and sacrifices required to regularly sail into teens and I see why it was (is) tempting for him to look into foils.

Most boats with average cruising speeds in single digits would likely see a small performance hit due to additional drag instead.

Too bad the G4 project fell off the radar after that famous wipe. Software could have solved the flight control issues and there might have been a niche of pioneers with the foiling cruising boats. Just too many safety issues i suppose, but one can always dream..