Are "Performance Cruising Catamarans" safe?

[Lee Jerry]

Originally Posted by catsketcher

Lee, I am not sure if you are trying to troll or if you are being obscure, but I will have one more go.

Performance cats can be less safe in negligently inexperienced hands in some conditions but more safe in the hands of a reasonable sailor, only reasonable, not expert. They can also be far easier to sail in many modes, because their foils work well, and they tack and gybe well, or because you can sail them with less sail, not more than heavier boats. Remember focussing only on capsize resistance is a very narrow view of safety, there are many more factors involved and as someone who has had these types of boats for decades I can think of many times when such a boat has improved safety as in my last post.

Take our last big trip, to Tasmania. We waited in Eden until a reasonably light to moderate high pressure system wafted over us. We motored out of Eden after dawn (improved safety by waiting for some light) and then about 20 miles down the coast started motor sailing. Within another 2 hours we were sailing at 8 knots.

To get to Wineglass Bay is close to 330 miles from Eden across some of the nastiest seas in Australia. So we put up our reacher and as the wind built the boat sped up , by midday we were on course and averaging about 8-10 knots. In the afternoon we sped up some more putting 12 miles under the keel every hour (that means hitting at least 15s regularly). At dusk we furled the reacher and sped on in total safety, doing 10s regularly with a smooth following sea. Never a worry or tightening of the rectum at any time, the boat was loving it and taking great care of us. By late the next morning we were off St Helens (about 270 nautical miles on the chart) at the northern corner of Tassie. The forecast had changed slightly and we were due to have a front come in in about 6 hours. We may have been able to make Wineglass, but as the wind had dropped in the early hours we had slowed to 6s, so we entered the shallow bar at St Helens about 6 hours before a nasty southerly came through, with us showered, crew packed for returning and having seen some of the town. It was a great and SAFE night at anchor instead of plugging into it in the dark.

In fact in the many thousands of miles our cat has taken us, we have almost never been pasted, because our cat allows us to sail in lighter weather windows, in more benign conditions, with more comfort and higher speeds than other cats. I am out of practice in getting bashed by the weather because we are almost always where the bad weather is not.

An inability to understand that safety is a multifaceted approach earns little respect from those of us who have benefited from the real and appreciable merits of a cat that can sail well and swiftly when required, yet still, in the hands of anyone with a mere modicum of ability, be reefed and have massive stability reserves when required. It does neophytes and those wanting to learn about design, no good to hear from people who have little experience in performance cats, decrying their abilties based on a single facet. Those of us who build and design cats know that the design and the analysis of a design is a very multi faceted thing that requires significant appreciation of subtleties and refinements, not a single measure.

I don't understand what your beef is. If you'd like to elaborate, maybe I can address it.

For the most part, IIRC, I agree with most everything you have sa

[Lee Jerry]

Originally Posted by catsketcher

Lee, I am not sure if you are trying to troll or if you are being obscure, but I will have one more go.

Performance cats can be less safe in negligently inexperienced hands in some conditions but more safe in the hands of a reasonable sailor, only reasonable, not expert. They can also be far easier to sail in many modes, because their foils work well, and they tack and gybe well, or because you can sail them with less sail, not more than heavier boats. Remember focussing only on capsize resistance is a very narrow view of safety, there are many more factors involved and as someone who has had these types of boats for decades I can think of many times when such a boat has improved safety as in my last post.

Take our last big trip, to Tasmania. We waited in Eden until a reasonably light to moderate high pressure system wafted over us. We motored out of Eden after dawn (improved safety by waiting for some light) and then about 20 miles down the coast started motor sailing. Within another 2 hours we were sailing at 8 knots.

To get to Wineglass Bay is close to 330 miles from Eden across some of the nastiest seas in Australia. So we put up our reacher and as the wind built the boat sped up , by midday we were on course and averaging about 8-10 knots. In the afternoon we sped up some more putting 12 miles under the keel every hour (that means hitting at least 15s regularly). At dusk we furled the reacher and sped on in total safety, doing 10s regularly with a smooth following sea. Never a worry or tightening of the rectum at any time, the boat was loving it and taking great care of us. By late the next morning we were off St Helens (about 270 nautical miles on the chart) at the northern corner of Tassie. The forecast had changed slightly and we were due to have a front come in in about 6 hours. We may have been able to make Wineglass, but as the wind had dropped in the early hours we had slowed to 6s, so we entered the shallow bar at St Helens about 6 hours before a nasty southerly came through, with us showered, crew packed for returning and having seen some of the town. It was a great and SAFE night at anchor instead of plugging into it in the dark.

In fact in the many thousands of miles our cat has taken us, we have almost never been pasted, because our cat allows us to sail in lighter weather windows, in more benign conditions, with more comfort and higher speeds than other cats. I am out of practice in getting bashed by the weather because we are almost always where the bad weather is not.

An inability to understand that safety is a multifaceted approach earns little respect from those of us who have benefited from the real and appreciable merits of a cat that can sail well and swiftly when required, yet still, in the hands of anyone with a mere modicum of ability, be reefed and have massive stability reserves when required. It does neophytes and those wanting to learn about design, no good to hear from people who have little experience in performance cats, decrying their abilties based on a single facet. Those of us who build and design cats know that the design and the analysis of a design is a very multi faceted thing that requires significant appreciation of subtleties and refinements, not a single measure.

(Let's try that again...)


I don't understand what your beef is. If you'd like to elaborate, maybe I can address it.

For the most part, IIRC, I agree with most everything you have said in your posts (I don't recall every little thing to say "all"). What made you write this post?

I've said multiple times that there is more to safety than just capsize. In comparing "cruising cats" with "performance cruising cats" some of those favor the former and some favor the latter. You want to go into all of them and do the scoring we could do that. But IMHO, when I do that myself, I come to the conclusion that in total, when everything is weighed (not necessarily equally), performance cats are less safe.

This basically comes down to cruising cats being more forgiving. So you are correct when you say "Performance cats can be less safe in negligently inexperienced hands in some conditions..." but it also goes a bit further. It isn't limited to just the negligently inexperienced; even for the experienced, they can get distracted, or over-tired, get surprised by something (weather, etc.) or just make a mistake. Whether experienced crew or inexperienced, the cruising cat is more likely to "survive" the event than a performance cruising cat. I consider this safer. Do you not agree?

I don't think there are many events that go the other way (perf cat survives where cruising wouldn't). Do you?

[Lee Jerry]

Originally Posted by smj

Yes there have been a few Lagoons that have capsized and at least 1 Leopard.

I asked about this earlier, maybe twice, without any response.

Is it fair to say that there have been a handful, say 6-ish, of cruising cat (Lagoon, Leopard, etc.) events in the past two decades?

Is it fair to say that there have been a handful of performance cruising cat (Gunboat, Outremer, etc.) events in the past HALF decade?

So the latter occurs at a rate 4x the former? Or 3x? Or 2x?

I don't know, I'm asking...

[neilpride]

You have to live with it, it's rare for a multihull to capsize... it's unlikely. Can it happen? Yes.

Can a monohull lose its keel? It can, and it has happened, is it an unlikely event? Yes.

What is the probability of capsizing a multihull V other type of disaster on other types of vessels? 50%50 40%60 20%80?

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Franziska

Actually, you could just as well ask if a Ferrari is unsafer than a limousine or SUV.

It's not much unsafer if you are skilled and responsible driver.

Skill is needed when you drive at high speed. Responsibility is factored in when you decide to go fast only on roads where it's safe to do so.

Same for a cat, with the added plus that you can outrun bad weather with the performance boat.

Obviously the higher performance boat requires more skill and responsibility as it's more unforgiving when you do not apply the two.

The problem are not the boats.

The problem is marketing, which makes less skilled and less responsible people think they can drive boats for which they have neither the skills nor the situational awareness required.

How often we do have threads here stating, "I never sailed but in x amount of time I want to sail around the world, how do I proceed". X often equal to 2-3 years or less.
These folks then tend to buy far to big boats because they want all the comforts from home and the performance marketing makes them believe they need to have (which they can't handle because of lack of experience).

Circumnavigations surely can be done carefully and safe. But it requires years of experience to do so safely. People starting threads like the one I mentioned usually don't have that.

Well put.


But if you intend to sail (drive) conservatively, I'm pretty sure the Ferrari is a poor choice. Quality touring sedan with be much more comfortable in every condition and way you will sail it. I've driven a few performance cars, and like performance boats (I've had a fair few of those) they aren't fun or better unless you plan to punch it ... often.


But I also did not suggest a 70s land yacht. I said "quality touring car," which implied something a modern car with excellent manners and a touch of sportiness. In terms of sailing cats, not a Prout either, and typical charter cats are sailing pigs.

[akprb]

Best response ever, period dot. I’ll add the boat won’t kill you, you will. Can’t add anything else, exactly what I was thinking.

Originally Posted by Franziska

Actually, you could just as well ask if a Ferrari is unsafer than a limousine or SUV.

It's not much unsafer if you are skilled and responsible driver.

Skill is needed when you drive at high speed. Responsibility is factored in when you decide to go fast only on roads where it's safe to do so.

Same for a cat, with the added plus that you can outrun bad weather with the performance boat.

Obviously the higher performance boat requires more skill and responsibility as it's more unforgiving when you do not apply the two.

The problem are not the boats.

The problem is marketing, which makes less skilled and less responsible people think they can drive boats for which they have neither the skills nor the situational awareness required.

How often we do have threads here stating, "I never sailed but in x amount of time I want to sail around the world, how do I proceed". X often equal to 2-3 years or less.
These folks then tend to buy far to big boats because they want all the comforts from home and the performance marketing makes them believe they need to have (which they can't handle because of lack of experience).

Circumnavigations surely can be done carefully and safe. But it requires years of experience to do so safely. People starting threads like the one I mentioned usually don't have that.

[psaltydogs]

Can any vessel be safe if it's stable up-side down?

[smj]

Originally Posted by psaltydogs

Can any vessel be safe if it's stable up-side down?

Up-side down and floating yes. Right side up or upside down on the bottom of the sea, no.

[dwightsusan]

Originally Posted by SoPacBound

Have a look at this video by Antares Catamarans.

https://youtu.be/G-Na3BbYhiY

Is it really that unsafe on high performance Catamarans available on the market? Or is it a case of " we don't have a competing product but still want to sell you a catamaran..."

I like the looks of say a Schionning, but if it is going to kill me...

3 points by a biased owner/operator, co-designer, and co-builder of a 48ft. x 28ft. x 1.5ft. (dagger boards) very high-performance cruising cat sailed offshore in the Gulf of Mexico, the Caribbean, and the Atlantic in all conditions for 22yrs.
1. Any boat is only as safe as the skill and attention of the captain and crew. This fact outweighs everything else.
2. A fast boat is far more likely to be able to avoid weather than a slow boat, especially in view of the plethora of detailed electronic weather information available at the nav station and the helm.
3. Design dependent safety in catamarans goes far beyond fast vs. slow. Stability factors include but are not limited to sail area, beam, displacement, and possibly lateral resistance design. A fast, potentially unstable, catamaran can be made to be a slower, more stable catamaran with careful attention to deployment of properly designed reefing systems, deployment of storm sails, and deployment of appropriate drogue systems.
Broad generalizations on the safety of performance cruising catamarans are inappropriate.
Some of us have a need for the adrenalin rush of speed and find heightened cruising pleasure in driving our catamaran as fast possible with due concern for safety. Some of us fidget continuously while sailing, manipulating controls of sail trim and sail shape, and in our case, dagger board deployment. Just as there are many different sailing vessels there are many different approaches to enjoying time on the water under sail.

[Symphony]

Mark Silverstein sailed his Antares with wife and two small children. He is a real family man and very concerned about their safety. He is also a superb sailor, mechanic, engineer, and world traveler. The family spent long time in some of the most remote parts of the Pacific while writing a blog called “field trip”. From his viewpoint of a super safe family long term home all of his points are valid.

The family stopped cruising so they can refill the kitty and the kids can go off to school on land for a while.

You might also check the resale value for the Antares vessels and you will see that they are very popular with cruisers that fit Mark’s cruising-mission.

[ozolli]

Originally Posted by Symphony

Mark Silverstein sailed his Antares with wife and two small children. He is a real family man and very concerned about their safety. He is also a superb sailor, mechanic, engineer, and world traveler. The family spent long time in some of the most remote parts of the Pacific while writing a blog called “field trip”. From his viewpoint of a super safe family long term home all of his points are valid.

The family stopped cruising so they can refill the kitty and the kids can go off to school on land for a while.

You might also check the resale value for the Antares vessels and you will see that they are very popular with cruisers that fit Mark’s cruising-mission.

I am a mechanical engineer, working in this industry for 35 years. As such, I take great care of the data I use for my job because it is of great importance to the security of my customers.

I wrote a comment to warn him that his comparison chart has incorrect data, and I mean boat displacement half the real one and sail area twice. And this for many boats.

He did not publish my comment and did not bother answering me or correcting his video. For me, and I will use his own words, his video is nothing more than marketing BS.

And regarding your last sentence, you can also check the resale value of any Outremer catamaran for example.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Symphony

Mark Silverstein sailed his Antares with wife and two small children. He is a real family man and very concerned about their safety. He is also a superb sailor, mechanic, engineer, and world traveler. The family spent long time in some of the most remote parts of the Pacific while writing a blog called “field trip”. From his viewpoint of a super safe family long term home all of his points are valid.



The family stopped cruising so they can refill the kitty and the kids can go off to school on land for a while.



You might also check the resale value for the Antares vessels and you will see that they are very popular with cruisers that fit Mark’s cruising-mission.

You forgot, he also works for Antares in the sales and marketing department.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Lee Jerry

If you don't know what an analogy is, perhaps an internet search might help.


Do try to keep up.

Yeah thanks for that mate. I do know what an analogy is, and you comparing Ferrari's and putrid crap boxes and using that to justify your erroneous ill informed position on Multihulls, a subject you have apparently no first hand knowledge of, isn't one (an analogy), things only got stupider when we started down the path of chainsaws. you have an irrational fear of decent well designed quality sailing boats is your problem not mine.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Symphony

Mark Silverstein sailed his Antares with wife and two small children. He is a real family man and very concerned about their safety. He is also a superb sailor, mechanic, engineer, and world traveler. The family spent long time in some of the most remote parts of the Pacific while writing a blog called “field trip”. From his viewpoint of a super safe family long term home all of his points are valid.

The family stopped cruising so they can refill the kitty and the kids can go off to school on land for a while.

You might also check the resale value for the Antares vessels and you will see that they are very popular with cruisers that fit Mark’s cruising-mission.

As others have said, conflict of interest. Which is not necessarily a bad thing if it is disclosed. As I recall the Antares is originally a Slater design, (PDQ) yachts in Canada. Not a bad thing but very old. turn of the century design with apparently minimal methodology updates. Decent boat just a bit of a plodder.

[lout]

He is 100% right I know the guys who have spent a motza on boats don’t like hearing that but it’s the truth.
You can’t outrun a storm unless you were on the very edge to begin with, low pressure system here yesterday is heading towards New Zealand at 63 knots….
And when the seas are up you can’t sail a cat at full pace anyway.