Atlantic 57 Catamaran Capsized

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

looking at my own boat polar, boat manages 9 kn in 40 kn app at 45 deg app and <1m sea with 2 reefs as per manual, which gives 5.07 VMG and I am sure some drift.

Ok, im sure if I get 40 knts app in a lake with per manual instructions also I can get the same results,,,, now in real ocean weather 40 knts app build a bit more of a 1 meter sea... I guess....

[Polux]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

that table is for windward - apparent wind. 45 kn app, probably 37 or so true.

Polux - 45 kn got from internet, from CF i think, no idea if correct. What I know is that 35 kn true and turning into wind with 1 reef is nonevent.

yes, it is for windward and I said it:
"CLOSE HAULED TRIMMING (between 75 and 50° to true wind)
Given wind force in apparent wind"

Neil talks about surfing so he was sailing downwind for downind sailing the recommendations on the manual are not very specific (apparent wind):

"NAVIGATION WIND ASTERN
- Do not fall off more than 150° to the apparent wind.
- Put the traveler out as far as possible and slacken the sheet slightly.
....
- Keep mainsail + solent up to 15 knots speed and put in one reef or
more if the accelerations are sudden and strong or if sea conditions
deteriorate."

They also give numbers for close reaching, a big higher but not very different, in what regards reefing. I believe that these two are the more important regarding the possibility of a capsize with a strong gust and that is way they are very detailed about them.
http://www.cata-lagoon.com/site_agen...ide_400_UK.pdf

By the way, on the page 10 they give misleading information regarding the comparison between the stability of a monohull and a multihull. They say that it is 6 times bigger. Sure, it is bigger, especially at low angles of heel, but if you look at the figures they posted you will see that the CG of the cat is quite low (where is the house?) and that the CG of the monohull is very close to the CG of the multihull. They obviously don't know that monohulls have big drafts and modern ones all ballast on the end of the keel

[robert sailor]

[QUOTE=Polux;2265190]yes, it is for windward and I said it:
"CLOSE HAULED TRIMMING (between 75 and 50° to true wind)
Given wind force in apparent wind"

Neil talks about surfing so he was sailing downwind for downind sailing the recommendations on the manual are not very specific (apparent wind):

"NAVIGATION WIND ASTERN
- Do not fall off more than 150° to the apparent wind.
- Put the traveler out as far as possible and slacken the sheet slightly.
....
- Keep mainsail + solent up to 15 knots speed and put in one reef or
more if the accelerations are sudden and strong or if sea conditions
deteriorate."

They also give numbers for close reaching, a big higher but not very different, in what regards reefing. I believe that these two are the more important regarding the possibility of a capsize with a strong gust and that is way they are very detailed about them.
http://www.cata-lagoon.com/site_agen...ide_400_UK.pdf

By the way, on the page 10 they give misleading information regarding the comparison between the stability of a monohull and a multihull. They say that it is 6 times bigger. Sure, it is bigger, especially at low angles of heel, but if you look at the figures they posted you will see that the CG of the cat is quite low (where is the house?) and that the CG of the monohull is very close to the CG of the multihull. They obviously don't know that monohulls have big drafts and modern ones all ballast on the end of the keel[/QUOT

I think they know Polux as in Lagoons case the same company builds tons of mono hulls but it's probably from the same marketing group that used to say Lagoons couldn't sink until some of them sunk and then they removed that from their marketing.

[neilpride]

No Robert, they still marketing watertight bulkheads despite they are not watertight,, guess the Word watertight in the French dictionary mean something else...

[Polux]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

I think they know Polux as in Lagoons case the same company builds tons of mono hulls but it's probably from the same marketing group that used to say Lagoons couldn't sink until some of them sunk and then they removed that from their marketing.

I know they know, I was just kidding. It seems that the humor didn't show as I intended..

[CookiesnTequila]

I've been away from CF for a while, and just finished reading this thread. My thoughts and sympathies go out to the crew of Leopard. Thankfully no one was lost!

It never ceases to amaze me how opinionated the uneducated can be! After years of research (and owning 3 mono-hulls), we chose a Catana 50 for our circumnavigation because I felt it was the safest and most comfortable option for a short-handed crew. We are a retired couple, and my wife, although a very able and capable hand, does not know how to sail. Our Catana is by far the easiest, and I believe safest boat I have ever sailed - period.

A few weeks ago we did an overnight 120 mile dead downwind romp in 20 - 35 knots, and the typical (for the Aegean) very steep +- 2 meter following seas. Yes, we saw the forecast and chose to go sailing! And, yes, I did it almost 100% of the time from the cozy comfort of my forward-looking nav station inside.

We did it under a double-reefed main sheeted hard on the downwind mainsheet, which is only about 20 - 25 degrees off center (Catanas have A-frame mainsheet arrangements). We sailed about 10 degrees off DDW all night long, with no worry about jibing at all, because it doesn't matter if the boat jibes. With the main sheeted tight like that, the boom will not move more than about 50cm in a jibe. In fact we did jibe a couple of times when the wind shifted (also very common in the Aegean), and one of those times the only reason I noticed we had jibed was because we started to slow down more than usual as a wave rolled under us. All I do is dial up a bit on the autopilot until we jibe back, and carry on. We averaged just under 8 knots over the 120 miles. We could have easily increased our average speed by at least 3, maybe 4 knots. But when it's just the two of us, and at night, we always choose safety and comfort over excitement! Speaking of comfort, we did not have to stow one single item before we departed. Even our 1.5L water bottles stayed standing upright on the galley counter.

If you think I'm BSing, have a look at this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnBve75x04o

My outside steering stations only get used when I want to manually steer for pleasure (which is quite often in fair weather), or if we are tacking or jibing. Everything else can be done perfectly safely from inside, including 360 degree visuals. The only thing I need to go to the cockpit for is to do visual rig checks, which I do every 10 - 20 minutes, and for sail adjustments, which get done standing upright in the center of the cockpit.

I own high-performance cars, not because I drive them at 270km per hour (which they are perfectly capable of doing, and I have done under appropriate circumstances), but because they are exponentially safer to drive under normal conditions than regular sedans or mini-vans! No different for well built performance oriented catamarans, and for that matter well built performance monohulls. Different story completely for very light, high-tech racing catamarans (or mono-hulls!). But the last time I checked, the world is still a fairly free place, and people are entitled to do whatever they want.

Bottom line; know your and your boat's limits, and sail within them! And, keep your fingers crossed that you don't find yourself in the path of very nasty weather or a whale, etc. Those are the risks of being on the sea that can never be completely eliminated.

So in my opinion, anyone that believes a well-built "performance" cruising catamaran is dangerous, is either uneducated or envious!

Purrring along......

[Polux]

Originally Posted by CookiesnTequila

I've been away from CF for a while, and just finished reading this thread. My thoughts and sympathies go out to the crew of Leopard. Thankfully no one was lost!

It never ceases to amaze me how opinionated the uneducated can be! After years of research (and owning 3 mono-hulls), we chose a Catana 50 for our circumnavigation because I felt it was the safest and most comfortable option for a short-handed crew. We are a retired couple, and my wife, although a very able and capable hand, does not know how to sail. Our Catana is by far the easiest, and I believe safest boat I have ever sailed - period.
.....
Bottom line; know your and your boat's limits, and sail within them! And, keep your fingers crossed that you don't find yourself in the path of very nasty weather or a whale, etc. Those are the risks of being on the sea that can never be completely eliminated.

So in my opinion, anyone that believes a well-built "performance" cruising catamaran is dangerous, is either uneducated or envious!

Purrring along......

Your boat is not very different than those Atlantic 57 that capsized, just a bit smaller and with less stability. I don't think that most have not being saying that a big cat is dangerous, even a performance one, only that the risks of capsizing on a performance cat are bigger than on a condo cat and that big performance cats, even if big cats capsize from time to time, at a much bigger rate than condo cats and that is a real risk even if a very small one but a much bigger one than in condo cats (I don't remember any condo cat with 50ft or over to have ever capsized).

You seem to assume that the ones that capsize did not known the boat limits and that if they capsized was by their fault (as all other that capsized on performance cats) when clearly it was not the case, at least in what regards to some of the cases.

Regarding Catanas and capsizes curiously one of them happened some years ago to the owner of the shipyard on almost flat seas on a mistral on the med. Some problem with the sail that got stuck, could not reef in time and capsized. I don't think he was an inexperienced sailor and he certainly new very well that boat.

[Boatguy30]

I was thinking how ironic it was to bang on about how safe the catana was when you objectively say the exact thing about the Atlantic.

Then proceed to describe the exact sailing style practiced on Anna!

[CookiesnTequila]

Originally Posted by Boatguy30

I was thinking how ironic it was to bang on about how safe the catana was when you objectively say the exact thing about the Atlantic.

Then proceed to describe the exact sailing style practiced on Anna!

I do not say that about the Atlantic at all. If I came across that way I certainly did not mean to. By light racing cats, I'm referring to the Gunboats and the like. If we could have afforded one, the Atlantic would have been a serious option for us. Any boat, Catana included will suffer in those types of conditions. And so will a mono. Capsizing is as serious a threat/risk in a catamaran as is a dismasting in a monohull.

I do believe Catanas are safer than non dagger-board cats, because they have no keel and therefore will slide sideways much easier (with boards up). And, it may surprise that the published (for what that's worth) displacement of a Catana 50 is about 20% heavier than a comparably sized Lagoon 450 It's about 1.5T heavier than a Lagoon 500.

[Dulcesuenos]

Not sure the big deal about a dagger board cat being able slip sideways down a wave vs a LAR, keel cats handling being sideways on a big wave. I've not heard of many cats flipping from sliding sideways down a wave "tripping on its keels,,, unless one hull was flooded. I could be wrong and would love to see some data on it

[Steadman Uhlich]

The Statements of the Atlantic 57 LEOPARD Captain and Crew:

The following is an excerpt from a posting on Facebook made by Charles Doane. This appeared on the website "Wavetrain" and here is a link to that original post: ATLANTIC 57 CAPSIZE: More Details on the Fate of Leopard

The following is an excerpt, as the original page contains some graphics prepared by others and some additional supporting text.
_____________

Statement of Charles Nethersole

My name is Charles Nethersole, Captain of Leopard, an Atlantic 57 sailing catamaran designed by Chris White, built by Aquidneck Custom Composites of Bristol, Rhode Island, launched in 2008, registered in the Cayman Islands.
What follows is a brief account of events that led to the capsize of Leopard, approximately 400 nautical miles north of the Dominican Republic, during the evening of November 16 while on passage from Annapolis to St Martin, and our subsequent rescue.

Leopard left Annapolis on Friday November 11 at 1430, sailing briskly south down the Chesapeake in an increasing motherly breeze, arriving in Little Creek, Virginia the following morning at 0430. We remained there for twelve hours to give time for the sea state to have subsided when we reached the Gulf Stream. After crossing the Stream we sailed then motored down the rhumb line towards St Martin in a dying north easterly breeze.

Strengthening wind developed from the southeast, forcing us to tack back and forth across the rhumb line. A large trough developed across the rhumb line with squally conditions. Commander’s Weather projected that the trough would finally pass us during Wednesday night. New wind from the west, veering over the next few days to the northeast would provide good sailing conditions for the latter half of the trip.

During Wednesday afternoon Leopard had been sailing south with one reef in the mainsail, and the staysail. The wind veered enough for us to tack over to the east southeast, still north of rhumbline but improving as the afternoon wore on. The leeward daggerboard was lowered about 3 feet. We were still in squally conditions with peak gusts into higher twenties. A second reef was taken in on the mainsail, forcing us to motorsail during the lulls but not be too pressed during the stronger gusts.

As twilight approached the average breeze had built to around twenty knots, with maximum gusts around 30 knots. A safety strop was attached to the second reef clew, and the staysail was rolled in to the second reef mark.

At 1830 Carolyn Bailey was relieved from watch by myself, so that she could prepare supper. She requested for a smoother motion as we were punching into head seas at an average of 7 knots. The autopilot was adjusted from 36 degree apparent wind angle to 42 and the sheets were slightly eased on the staysail and mainsail to twist and depower.

Around 1900 the cooking was done, true wind speed was about 18 knots, (apparent 24) and I was about to harden up when a roar from a gust of wind hit the boat. The starboard hull lifted and continued rotating over. Even though I was standing at the helm station I had no time to disengage the autopilot before I was off balance as the boat went over completely.

There was a lot of crashing noise, and water pouring in through the smashed front door. I shouted to Carolyn to see if she was Ok. She said so but had had the stove fall on top of her head during the capsize. Bert grabbed the liferaft and exited the rear door swimming under the aft deck to climb onto the underside( now topside) of the wing deck.

I dropped down into the starboard pontoon to help Carolyn. We recovered her own survival suit and another immersion suit, undid the step to the escape hatch and exited the pontoon onto the wing deck, joining Bert.

I then went over to the other hatch climbed in and retrieved another immersion suit and the ditch bag. The saloon at this stage was fully flooded, while the pontoons were about neck deep.

I then joined Bert and Carolyn on the wing deck. We donned our suits and tried to activate the EPIRB. We were holding onto the handles of the escape hatch and the liferaft valise, but as the boat settled this became untenable.

Bert retrieved the dinghy and tied it as best he could close to the starboard escape hatch. We climbed into the dinghy. It was being pushed around by waves coming in over the aft part of the wing deck, occasionally by some from forward, and would ground on the stringers and conduit on the underside of the wing deck.

We noticed after an hour or more that the EPIRB wasn’t transmitting. It seemed it had to be immersed to transmit, so we left it in the water sloshing around the bottom of the dinghy.

After a few hours of being thrashed around and occasionally being swamped by waves in the dinghy, we saw a USCG C-130 coming towards us. We set off two night sticks and waved them at the plane when it passed close by. A freighter appeared on the horizon heading in our direction. The plane dropped a flare close to us. The freighter approached close to Leopard, and threw lines attached to life rings and beacons.

I grabbed a line with a loop. Carolyn and Bert each had lines with life rings. I jumped in the water and was quickly hauled aboard. Bert was hauled up next, but had a more difficult time having to climb up a Jacob’s ladder.

Carolyn had the worst time. By this time there were many lines all tangled around her. Bert donned a life jacket and jumped back in to help Carolyn. She suffered multiple dunkings while struggling to disentangle her feet, suffering more bruising in the process but eventually was hauled aboard as was Bert.

We were looked after by the crew of the M/V Aloe for two days before being transferred to a USCG cutter off Miami and brought to the base there.

We are now trying to put our lives back together as we left Leopard wearing only shorts and T-shirts. Clothes, shoes, phones, computers, credit cards, passports, visas, driving licenses, mariner’s licenses etc all need to be re-acquired.

But we are all still here. It could easily have had a worse outcome if that microburst or whatever it was had hit when crew were sleeping.



Statement of Carolyn Bailey

We left Little Creek, Va. heading for St. Maarten just after 4pm on Saturday, 12th November. We had a smooth passage across the Gulf Stream and then the weather became overcast and squally. It seemed we were traveling at the same speed and direction as the system and the wind was always from the direction that we wanted to go. We tacked back and forth across our Rhumb line trying to get the best course to our destination.

The weather never felt threatening or dangerous. It was just very frustrating. Windspeed would drop to 6 or 7 knots and we would be motoring against 'lumpy' seas, then it would increase to 15/18 knots and we would be sailing again. Within the hour we would be reefing as the apparent wind reached the high twenties, then shaking out the reef or reefs as the wind died to nothing again. Charles, always a conscientious sailor, reacted immediately by reefing or shaking out the reef to meet the wind conditions. It was much work to make little headway towards our destination.

A little after 7pm on Wednesday I was having a hard time preparing dinner, as water was spilling out of the cooking pot repeatedly extinguishing the stove. We were on a starboard tack with double reefed main and staysail making about 6 knots to weather I asked if we could run off a little while I finished cooking, so Charles and Bert went out again, eased the sheets and took in the staysail a few turns.

When they came back in from the cockpit, I heard Charles say something to the effect that, "Of course, now the wind is dying again!"

At that point there was a loud roar coming from the starboard aft quarter. I stopped what I was doing, thinking that it could not possibly be the wind as it was not accompanied by the familiar rushing of water across the hull. It was like a train passing! Then I was thrown back into the fridge door, heard everything crashing around in the galley and inside lockers, and was hit in the face by the galley stove. When the boat settled I was pinned under the stove and in the flickering light saw water rushing in. Confusion, disbelief, the ultimate nightmare. But how could this have happened? On my watches over the past two grey days I had never seen the true wind exceed 28 knots, and the sea state was not close to anything that could flip a 57' catamaran.

I pushed the stove off me and heard Charles and Bert calling, asking if I was OK. They said to come through to them in the main saloon. I felt a huge bump the size of an egg forming on my forehead but so many other things were happening, it wasn't my primary concern. In the main saloon water was waste deep and Bert was opening the back door and pulling the life raft with him. Before I could say that I thought it was a bad idea, he was through and I gave the life raft a push to free it from the closing door.

I heard Bert shouting for us to follow, but the water quickly rose to chest deep and the door closed. There was an eerie bluish light coming from below the surface of the water (Chart plotter?). Charles mentioned there would be more air and dry space in the bow but we decided to find the escape hatch and went back to the galley. We heard Bert banging on the outside and were relieved and elated to find each other safe.

Charles climbed out and he and Bert crossed the wing deck and opened up the other escape hatch on the port hull. They retrieved an immersion suit and the ditch bag, in which he had instructed Bert to put the EPIRB before leaving. He then returned to the starboard hatch and we both went back inside to locate the other immersion suits. There was one in each cabin. By this time it was dark inside and one could only sift through the floating debris. I found Bert's immersion suit and Charles found my personal Mustang survival suit floating, so now we had three.

The main saloon was now underwater.

Being on the wing deck between the two hulls was something akin to one of those artificial 'surf maker' pools; we were washed fore and aft across the slick Awlgrip surface with each wave while trying to get into our survival suits and hold fast onto the life raft and ditch bag.

We huddled around the hatch with the EPIRB turned on, discussing options, access to food and water etc. and decided it would be safer to wait until daylight before attempting anything. By now there was a strong smell of diesel inside the boat and an oily film on the floating items.

The situation on the wing deck deteriorated as the boat settled deeper and some waves were crashing over our heads. It was getting harder to hold on and we thought it would be better to bring the dinghy on to the wing deck and climb inside. Bert made his way to the stern and did an amazing feat of climbing into the bucking dinghy and releasing the lashings while being violently tossed around. He managed to pay out the painter until the dinghy washed down onto the wing deck and then secure it with a line to the steering cables.

We climbed into the dinghy taking the life raft, ditch bag and EPIRB. It was an improvement, being above the breaking waves, but the deep vee-shaped RIB bottom would strike violently against the stringers on the wing deck as it moved sideways, so we had to find a way of lashing its port side down. This we did by securing a line to the ladder inside the starboard escape hatch. The dinghy filled with water due to wave action and although the bung was out, the water could not drain.

We had no idea of time or how long we were there, but when the clouds parted a little, the moon was almost directly overhead. Bert spotted the lights of a low flying plane approaching. It flew right over us and then circled around for what seemed like an hour or two. We guessed that it was diverting a ship towards us and pretty soon we saw lights in the distance.

The captain did an excellent job of positioning the ship within 20 feet of Leopard enabling the crew to throw lines to us. Despite several catastrophic mishaps during the transfer, eventually everyone was pulled safely on board at 5am Thursday thanks to Bert's foolhardy, heroic action of getting back into the water from the safety of the freighter to help me out. The crew of the Aloe gave us every assistance and provided overwhelming hospitality and kindness. Exactly two days later we were transferred to a US Coastguard vessel 16 miles off Florida and brought into Miami. The Coastguard were extremely efficient and professional, fed us breakfast and dressed my wounds. The captain kindly provided us all with a copy of a memorandum explaining our circumstances to assist us in applying for identification documents, and gave his personal phone number in case further information was needed.

The loss of Leopard is a tragedy. The owners are conscientious sailors and no expense was ever spared in maintenance and safety. They have always been very proactive in the update of safety features. She was in excellent condition, to my mind the best, safest and most comfortable passage maker I ever sailed on; I always felt it a privilege to sail on her. In my 42 years of off- shore sailing, I have seen weird weather and tidal phenomena, water spouts at a distance, unexplained, roaring mid-ocean 'tidal rips' etc. and am convinced that this was one of those events. I regret it had to happen on our watch.

I believe that if the crew were less experienced, the skipper less professional, the boat not so well equipped, it could have had a very different outcome.
No one panicked and all stayed positive the whole time. I wish it had not happened but I couldn't have shared this disaster with a better team!



Nethersole did note in transmitting these to me by e-mail:

Carolyn tells me my memory is less than 100%! Apparently she came up into the saloon from the galley after the boat went over, then we both went back down into the pontoon after Bert had gone out of the back door.

I opened the escape hatch and went over to the other side to the other hatch, climbed in got in grabbed the ditch bag and an immersion suit, then went back to Carolyn’s side (starboard), went in and I found Carolyn’s survival suit and Carolyn found another immersion suit. We then joined Bert on the wing deck, getting into our suits while still holding onto the ditch bag and life raft.

He concluded our phone conversation with the following statement: “As for those people on the forums, they weren’t there, they don’t know. I can assure them they wouldn’t have done any better than we did.”

[Steadman Uhlich]

Another point found on the article i linked above is that the Atlantic 57 does have a "designed survival space" in the bows of the boat and that space is shown in a drawing or plan of the cat hull (seen on that linked page).

But, the captain and crew of this capsized boat chose NOT to stay inside the overturned boat. There was mention in the article of diesel fuel in the water and that it was considered unsafe to be inside the boat.

They chose to stay OUTSIDE (wearing immersion suits).

[beiland]

Originally Posted by CookiesnTequila

I've been away from CF for a while, and just finished reading this thread. My thoughts and sympathies go out to the crew of Leopard. Thankfully no one was lost!

It never ceases to amaze me how opinionated the uneducated can be! After years of research (and owning 3 mono-hulls), we chose a Catana 50 for our circumnavigation because I felt it was the safest and most comfortable option for a short-handed crew. We are a retired couple, and my wife, although a very able and capable hand, does not know how to sail. Our Catana is by far the easiest, and I believe safest boat I have ever sailed - period.

Originally Posted by CookiesnTequila

A few weeks ago we did an overnight 120 mile dead downwind romp in 20 - 35 knots, and the typical (for the Aegean) very steep +- 2 meter following seas. Yes, we saw the forecast and chose to go sailing! And, yes, I did it almost 100% of the time from the cozy comfort of my forward-looking nav station inside.

We did it under a double-reefed main sheeted hard on the downwind mainsheet, which is only about 20 - 25 degrees off center (Catanas have A-frame mainsheet arrangements). We sailed about 10 degrees off DDW all night long, with no worry about jibing at all, because it doesn't matter if the boat jibes.

If you think I'm BSing, have a look at this:

(mainsail triple reefed in this video)

I submit that the 'mainstaysail' of my aftmast rig might just as well performed as this reefed mainsail in these 2 examples, and/or as I have suggested for bigger wind conditions a storm sail that zips over the roller furled 'mainstaysail'

[SVNeko]

Originally Posted by Dulcesuenos

Not sure the big deal about a dagger board cat being able slip sideways down a wave vs a LAR, keel cats handling being sideways on a big wave. I've not heard of many cats flipping from sliding sideways down a wave "tripping on its keels,,, unless one hull was flooded. I could be wrong and would love to see some data on it

Even more dubious is sliding due to gust, which has been asserted several times here. I don't think in a microburst situation the boat would have any time to slide to leeward before turning. In any event, all the slide would do is reduce apparent wind by a few knots, which would not change the stability calculation appreciably.

[Boatguy30]

I think the slide thing is more intended when beam to large seas with reduced or no sail up. Boat is less likely to "trip" MAYBE

Prouts all have keels and are supposedly the safest cats.