Atlantic 57 Catamaran Capsized

[beiland]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Interesting discussion but having read the report on wind noise etc from those on the boat it's hard to dream up water spouts which are tornados basically. Obviously it was a strong gust of wind that capsized the boat but I kinda think if I was hit by a tornado that I wouldnt discribe it in the way it was discribed. Water spouts are associated with large CB cells and any half-assed skipper would be very aware that he was sailing in these conditions, it certainly would not be a surprise which was the way it was discribe.

I've seen waterspouts off in the distance out in the Bahamas and the Gulf Stream that appeared to come out of relatively clear skies.

And if you look thru a number of tornado videos you may find the same for some tornadoes. It is not always a big menacing sky.

[smj]

Originally Posted by beiland

I've seen waterspouts off in the distance out in the Bahamas and the Gulf Stream that appeared to come out of relatively clear skies.

And if you look thru a number of tornado videos you may find the same for some tornadoes. It is not always a big menacing sky.

This is my experience as well, seen many waterspouts spawn from a non threatening cloud on a beautiful partly sunny day.


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[Polux]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Well here's a fact for you. I never mentioned monohulls in my post.

Actually I think you constantly deal in bias, not facts. You'd post in the multihull forum more often than anyone else, and very close to 100% of these posts are negative in their nature.

I don't care in what forum I post. I see the posts through "new posts" and I don't care in what forum they are. I post if the subject interests me and multihulls interests me as much as monohulls and not in a negative way.

If I am biased you can always contradict what I say and that had not happened on this thread.

Even now, we can see that we agree, in what regards to what Poiu said regarding winds over 100kt to pose a thereat to cats, independently of sea state. I wrongly assumed that you were saying that they would pose a threat to monohulls too, when after all you were speaking of trimarans.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by smj

This is my experience as well, seen many waterspouts spawn from a non threatening cloud on a beautiful partly sunny day.


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

Indeed.

Who said something about waterspouts lifting water? They generally do NOT lift water. With very few exceptions, they are weak and not dangerous. They are quite different from tornadoes on land.

I've sailed around lots of them in the Baltic, where for some reason they form quite a lot. Have some photos somewhere.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Indeed.

Who said something about waterspouts lifting water? They generally do NOT lift water. With very few exceptions, they are weak and not dangerous. They are quite different from tornadoes on land.

I've sailed around lots of them in the Baltic, where for some reason they form quite a lot. Have some photos somewhere.

Had a couple form about 3-4 miles away on my last trip.. between Sardinia and Sicily.. then one began to form about 500metres ahead so I called the owner up for a look.. we then altered course 90* to port and got the sails down.. resumed course as it wandered westward after its kin.
Winds picked up slightly but went back down to 6-10kts shortly after the course change.
Most all spouts I've seen have been in relatively flat water.. and that includes Transats..

[catsketcher]

As someone who has had more than a few times been laid flat in racing monos (on flat water) I thought I would have a quick squiz on the net to see about cruising monos. I got this one from an old book.

https://books.google.com.au/books?id...squall&f=false

and this one from Lin Pardey. (The boat she talks about getting laid flat is the 1970s S and S design Ragamuffin - classic and very modest for today boat that is heavily ballasted and in no way a lightweight. In much the same vein as the classic and world girdling S and S 34). It got hit by a squall too, like the Atlantics.

Lin and Larry Pardey Make a Voyage in Rough Weather | Cruising World

So I think we can say that ALL boats can be laid flat by squalls - monos will come back up which is good. Multis have far more stability than monos which is good for them too, they need it.

When trying to talk about safe or not safe cats I think it is important to remember that Leopard was double reefed and carrying only a reefed jib, as such she probably had much MORE stability than an unreefed condocat, not less. The lesson here is that a safely sailed cat with huge amounts of reserve stability can still capsize. Anna needed 62 knots to capsize according to the maths - enough to overcome the stability of almost any sub 50ft cat. Leopard had less sail than Anna - White will probably calculate the numbers later. It is probably north of 70 knots for Leopard.

Chris White talks about it here

https://www.chriswhitedesigns.com/25...o-capsize-anna

One of the reasons that I can sail a cat is because capsize need not be fatal. With a few preparations it can be reasonably comfortable. Chris White again

https://www.chriswhitedesigns.com/25...verturned-boat

I like the Atlantic because Chris White designed for ALL of the boat's possible eventualities. As such the boat can be safe if inverted. It seems as though there may still be some training needed to get people to practice how to get into the safe pods after capsize.

cheers

Phil

(I did read on someone's post about canting trimaran rigs and Sean Langman's ORMA 60 tri. It does have a canting rig too. I sailed it once from the Gold Coast to Sydney. The rig cants to windward for greater speed as the forces are then in the most efficient plane - just X and Y. It capsized before Langman bought it when known as Banque Populaire. It could do 15 knots upwind at 45 true - what a ride)
cheers

Phil

[neilpride]

One of the reasons that I can sail a cat is because capsize need not be fatal. With a few preparations it can be reasonably comfortable. Chris White again
Chris White say...

Few preparations huu? like what? strapped in the cabins 24/7? or ready to jump in the water in the gusts....??

[robert sailor]

There are 2 types of water spouts, a fair weather water spout which is often formed in light wind conditions usually remains static and doesn't move, the wind velocities in fair weather water spouts would likely not capsize a large Cat as they seldom exceed 60 knots and are usually lighter, they are also on the smaller size. The second type is similar to a land tornado and comes from the base of a CB cloud, it's this type that could very easily flip a Cat. I'm still not convinced that it was a water spout that hit the Cat.

[mikereed100]

If I had to choose, I would say it was more likely a microburst than a water spout, given the crew's description. If it was anything like the microburst recorded below, in which the wind went from 20 to 130 knots in 2 minutes, there would have been nothing they could do. Keels or daggers, sails up or down the boat would have gone over. Incidents like this make me think long and hard about what I would do in a similar situation and how I can best prepare.

[peter57]

Water spouts can be very dangerous to any sailing boat.

I was made to have a different opinion about water spouts when being deckie for a Gun Ho trap fisherman, on his West Aussie cray boat we were reseting the traps on the Texas grounds not far from Bird Island, the weather was great and the sea was silky when several water spouts formed less than a mile from us, he started to freak out a little which was truly left field for this bloke and steamed towards shore and followed the coast line 8 miles back to the mooring, muttering about how dangerous they were, my thoughts were that I have seen these a few times surfing and they looked harmless. Over the years I have heard different opinions of their strengths and dangers. Copy and past the underline below shows how devastating one could be to any boat.

Waterspout wrecks homes in NSW town as storm hits hard

I sell roofing tools and was told a first hand by two of my clients that at first it looked cool as the young guys were surfers but when it crossed on to land they quickly secured some loose roof sheets and watch it for a while in amazement until it was time to take cover, It missed them.

Peter.

[catsketcher]

Mike

This page has some extra information about the weather and some details from the skipper. Scroll to the very bottom to see the skipper's, I think rather pertinent, comments.

ATLANTIC 57 CAPSIZE: More Details on the Fate of Leopard - Sailfeed

cheers

Phil

[Polux]

"Around 1900 the cooking was done, true wind speed was about 18 knots, (apparent 24) and I was about to harden up when a roar from a gust of wind hit the boat. The starboard hull lifted and continued rotating over. Even though I was standing at the helm station I had no time to disengage the autopilot before I was off balance as the boat went over completely.

There was a lot of crashing noise, and water pouring in through the smashed front door. "

If it was a waterspout he would have heard not only the roar of the wind but the thundering noise of the water hitting the hull. Nothing of that kind is described by any of the statements from the crew.

[SV DestinyAscen]

A little after 7pm on Wednesday I was having a hard time preparing dinner, as water was spilling out of the cooking pot repeatedly extinguishing the stove. We were on a starboard tack with double reefed main and staysail making about 6 knots to weather I asked if we could run off a little while I finished cooking, so Charles and Bert went out again, eased the sheets and took in the staysail a few turns.

When they came back in from the cockpit, I heard Charles say something to the effect that, “Of course, now the wind is dying again!”

And that's when the boat capsized. Apparently the poor crew member was also hit by the stove, which apparently wasn't secured.

[Training Wheels]

Originally Posted by Polux

"Around 1900 the cooking was done, true wind speed was about 18 knots, (apparent 24) and I was about to harden up when a roar from a gust of wind hit the boat. The starboard hull lifted and continued rotating over. Even though I was standing at the helm station I had no time to disengage the autopilot before I was off balance as the boat went over completely.



There was a lot of crashing noise, and water pouring in through the smashed front door. "



If it was a waterspout he would have heard not only the roar of the wind but the thundering noise of the water hitting the hull. Nothing of that kind is described by any of the statements from the crew.

And you know that because you have been hit by a waterspout? Given the circumstances, you think you could tell the difference between wind and water noise, while you're fighting for your life?

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by Training Wheels

And you know that because you have been hit by a waterspout? Given the circumstances, you think you could tell the difference between wind and water noise, while you're fighting for your life?

I think the key here is the skipper was at the helm when the gust hit them, don't you think he would see a water spout if it was there, how could he miss it??