Atlantic 57 Catamaran Capsized

[donradcliffe]

I've gone through a minor waterspout without damage, but this one would have gotten my full attention. The crew on Nicorette didn't just tuck another reef in, they took all the canvas off and went below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVDEhUPY3bo

[smj]

Originally Posted by Polux

"Around 1900 the cooking was done, true wind speed was about 18 knots, (apparent 24) and I was about to harden up when a roar from a gust of wind hit the boat. The starboard hull lifted and continued rotating over. Even though I was standing at the helm station I had no time to disengage the autopilot before I was off balance as the boat went over completely.



There was a lot of crashing noise, and water pouring in through the smashed front door. "



If it was a waterspout he would have heard not only the roar of the wind but the thundering noise of the water hitting the hull. Nothing of that kind is described by any of the statements from the crew.

All this coming from you in your recliner behind the computer screen.


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[smj]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

I think the key here is the skipper was at the helm when the gust hit them, don't you think he would see a water spout if it was there, how could he miss it??

The Atlantic has 2 helms, one inside and one outside. I'm guessing he was talking about the inside helm as he was getting ready to eat dinner. Maybe not great visibility? Some people would fault the design of having an inside helm as your not in the elements, but I would guess if it was any other boat it would have been on autopilot and the captain would have also been inside ready for a good meal.


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[Training Wheels]

The more I read posts from Polux, the more I think his sailing experience is entirely from the internet.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Training Wheels

The more I read posts from Polux, the more I think his sailing experience is entirely from the internet.

I think Polux may have some monohull experience, but I agree, any multihull experience has probably been gained from the Internet.


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[Palarran]

Originally Posted by smj

The Atlantic has 2 helms, one inside and one outside. I'm guessing he was talking about the inside helm as he was getting ready to eat dinner. Maybe not great visibility? Some people would fault the design of having an inside helm as your not in the elements, but I would guess if it was any other boat it would have been on autopilot and the captain would have also been inside ready for a good meal.


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I've already said this but it amazes me that so may cat sailors can sit inside when on watch. For some reason I thought being on watch meant that you actually had to look around, pretty much all the time. I don't fault this boat for having an inside helm, I'd fault it for being a high performance boat with a cockpit forward of the bridgedeck which makes inside much more desireable then bulkhead mounted helms when the weather gets crappy.

[PhiSig1071]

Has Chris White ever given specifics as to why he prefers the forward helm? I've admittedly never sailed on one but it seems like it's a very unprotected location in unsettled weather. Which is exactly when you would need to be there.

[CookiesnTequila]

Originally Posted by Palarran

I've already said this but it amazes me that so may cat sailors can sit inside when on watch. For some reason I thought being on watch meant that you actually had to look around, pretty much all the time. I don't fault this boat for having an inside helm, I'd fault it for being a high performance boat with a cockpit forward of the bridgedeck which makes inside much more desireable then bulkhead mounted helms when the weather gets crappy.

This is an interesting side topic. I would love to hear others' opinions. Maybe I would change my mind, but for now I respectfully disagree (which doesn't seem to happen much on this forum!! I have a friend that has owned 3 or 4 high performance sports cars but has never driven one of them over 100km/hr! Everyone has a different risk tolerance.

Have you seen where Leopard's inside helm is? It is better situated in proximity to sail controls than the bulkhead mounted helm stations of many catamarans. The difference is at most a second more to get to a sheet, and maybe even a lot quicker depending on the type of other cat you compare her to.

In fact, I know from experience that the sail controls are much easier, and for me safer to reach and work, on our boat than they were on all of the 5 or 6 other makes of catamarans that I chartered before settling on ours.

All our sheets are an arm's reach from the center of my cockpit, which is almost the same distance from all three of my stations (port & stbd helms and inside nav). They are all operated from a fully upright standing position. I have not timed it, but I bet there would be less than a second difference for me to reach them between our three stations.

Almost always during the day and often at night I steer manually, because I enjoy it. But when it's dark or uncomfortable I often pilot from the inside station, from where I have a clear view of every angle but my two aft quarters. My rules when I do that are:
1) only under conservatively reefed sail (exactly like Leopard did or even more if we are short-handed).
2) Cockpit door and window remains wide open (like most cats, we have a very large cockpit door and sliding window that opens to almost the width of the cockpit.
3) radar is on
4) wind speed alarm is set, again very conservatively
5) an outside 360, and rig check gets done every 10 minutes.

I'm not sure a person at a bulkhead helm will feel/sense/hear a wind change much/enough/any better than I will at the inside helm of our boat, or for that matter at the inside helm of Leopard. And, it doesn't appear that being at the outside helm would have made any difference to Leopard anyway.

I am comfortable with our level of diligence. But I welcome anyone trying to convince me otherwise.....

Cheers

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Training Wheels

And you know that because you have been hit by a waterspout? Given the circumstances, you think you could tell the difference between wind and water noise, while you're fighting for your life?

Well, I have been hit by something with winds out of scale. It is was not a waterspout because I was not hit by water neither the water flying around me was more than the water I saw (when lightnings strike) more far away.

I suppose that when someone is hit directly by a huge amount of water he could tell the diference regarding being hit by wind alone, even if frightened.

The noise and the vibration of the water smashing on the boat hull and deck would certainly make a different noise and a different vibration on the hull.

They simply say that the wind hit and the boat capsized. I believe they would describe something more frightening if they had a direct it with a waterspout big enough to capsize a boat.

Originally Posted by Training Wheels

The more I read posts from Polux, the more I think his sailing experience is entirely from the internet.

Originally Posted by smj

All this coming from you in your recliner behind the computer screen.

Regarding this subject it seems that I am more experienced than any of you since you have never been subjected to the experience of being hit by winds out of scale (100k or over).

If any of you had that experience you could tell us more regarding cats or trimarans capsized by huge winds, but it seems that you did not have that experience yet.

[Palarran]

Originally Posted by CookiesnTequila

This is an interesting side topic. I would love to hear others' opinions. Maybe I would change my mind, but for now I respectfully disagree (which doesn't seem to happen much on this forum!! I have a friend that has owned 3 or 4 high performance sports cars but has never driven one of them over 100km/hr! Everyone has a different risk tolerance.

Have you seen where Leopard's inside helm is? It is better situated in proximity to sail controls than the bulkhead mounted helm stations of many catamarans. The difference is at most a second more to get to a sheet, and maybe even a lot quicker depending on the type of other cat you compare her to.

In fact, I know from experience that the sail controls are much easier, and for me safer to reach and work, on our boat than they were on all of the 5 or 6 other makes of catamarans that I chartered before settling on ours.

All our sheets are an arm's reach from the center of my cockpit, which is almost the same distance from all three of my stations (port & stbd helms and inside nav). They are all operated from a fully upright standing position. I have not timed it, but I bet there would be less than a second difference for me to reach them between our three stations.

Almost always during the day and often at night I steer manually, because I enjoy it. But when it's dark or uncomfortable I often pilot from the inside station, from where I have a clear view of every angle but my two aft quarters. My rules when I do that are:
1) only under conservatively reefed sail (exactly like Leopard did or even more if we are short-handed).
2) Cockpit door and window remains wide open (like most cats, we have a very large cockpit door and sliding window that opens to almost the width of the cockpit.
3) radar is on
4) wind speed alarm is set, again very conservatively
5) an outside 360, and rig check gets done every 10 minutes.

I'm not sure a person at a bulkhead helm will feel/sense/hear a wind change much/enough/any better than I will at the inside helm of our boat, or for that matter at the inside helm of Leopard. And, it doesn't appear that being at the outside helm would have made any difference to Leopard anyway.

I am comfortable with our level of diligence. But I welcome anyone trying to convince me otherwise.....

Cheers

It would be interesting to get a poll on this. In the comparison to your friend with the sports cars, has he ever driven one from the back seat while on cruise control and using auto lane correction? That would be a more appropriate comparison to sailing from inside the bridgedeck.

I don't consider nav stations to be helm locations. It probably is only seconds difference from an inside helm to the sail controls except you have to go through a door, which could be difficult when the boat is at a 45 degree angle. The door to the cockpit on CW cats are unlikely open as they face forward, unlike yours and mine.

But what I really have to respectfully disagree with is "a person at a bulkhead helm will not feel/sense/hear a wind change much/enough/any better than I will at the inside helm of our boat, or for that matter at the inside helm of Leopard". There are many times I feel a temperature change in the wind, a larger puff, or just something different when outside and feel it would be less obvious inside. For my boat, it probably doesn't matter as much because she's pretty heavy but we still stay on outside watch anyway.

As an aside, Yeloya took me out on a Catana 582 when I was in Marmaris. What a power beast !!. Loved the boat and he and I talked about buying either Aurora or Caliglio when they were available in Ft. Lauderdale last year. I'm glad we didn't because in reflection it would be just too much boat for me to sail with just my wife. But if I had a crew - wow would I want one.

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by CookiesnTequila

This is an interesting side topic. I would love to hear others' opinions. Maybe I would change my mind, but for now I respectfully disagree (which doesn't seem to happen much on this forum!! I have a friend that has owned 3 or 4 high performance sports cars but has never driven one of them over 100km/hr! Everyone has a different risk tolerance.

Have you seen where Leopard's inside helm is? It is better situated in proximity to sail controls than the bulkhead mounted helm stations of many catamarans. The difference is at most a second more to get to a sheet, and maybe even a lot quicker depending on the type of other cat you compare her to.

In fact, I know from experience that the sail controls are much easier, and for me safer to reach and work, on our boat than they were on all of the 5 or 6 other makes of catamarans that I chartered before settling on ours.

All our sheets are an arm's reach from the center of my cockpit, which is almost the same distance from all three of my stations (port & stbd helms and inside nav). They are all operated from a fully upright standing position. I have not timed it, but I bet there would be less than a second difference for me to reach them between our three stations.

Almost always during the day and often at night I steer manually, because I enjoy it. But when it's dark or uncomfortable I often pilot from the inside station, from where I have a clear view of every angle but my two aft quarters. My rules when I do that are:
1) only under conservatively reefed sail (exactly like Leopard did or even more if we are short-handed).
2) Cockpit door and window remains wide open (like most cats, we have a very large cockpit door and sliding window that opens to almost the width of the cockpit.
3) radar is on
4) wind speed alarm is set, again very conservatively
5) an outside 360, and rig check gets done every 10 minutes.

I'm not sure a person at a bulkhead helm will feel/sense/hear a wind change much/enough/any better than I will at the inside helm of our boat, or for that matter at the inside helm of Leopard. And, it doesn't appear that being at the outside helm would have made any difference to Leopard anyway.

I am comfortable with our level of diligence. But I welcome anyone trying to convince me otherwise.....

Cheers

I don't think you got the same feeling be outside or inside, squalls and nasty things sometimes have a strong smell in the air,,,i doubt you can smell a sudden big blow from inside....

To me , just a finger and a quick reaction at the helm and the diference can be huge... now the precious time you can waste from running from the confy saloon to the helm station make the diference ....

[smj]

Originally Posted by Polux

Well, I have been hit by something with winds out of scale. It is was not a waterspout because I was not hit by water neither the water flying around me was more than the water I saw (when lightnings strike) more far away.

I suppose that when someone is hit directly by a huge amount of water he could tell the diference regarding being hit by wind alone, even if frightened.

The noise and the vibration of the water smashing on the boat hull and deck would certainly make a different noise and a different vibration on the hull.

They simply say that the wind hit and the boat capsized. I believe they would describe something more frightening if they had a direct it with a waterspout big enough to capsize a boat.



Regarding this subject it seems that I am more experienced than any of you since you have never been subjected to the experience of being hit by winds out of scale (100k or over).

If any of you had that experience you could tell us more regarding cats or trimarans capsized by huge winds, but it seems that you did not have that experience yet.

Nope Polux, never experienced a capsize on a multihull. Didn't realize you had to before being considered an experienced multihuller. My guess is you have almost or zero experience with sailing multihulls. All experience gained on the Internet?


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[PhiSig1071]

Originally Posted by CookiesnTequila

This is an interesting side topic. I would love to hear others' opinions. Maybe I would change my mind, but for now I respectfully disagree (which doesn't seem to happen much on this forum!! I have a friend that has owned 3 or 4 high performance sports cars but has never driven one of them over 100km/hr! Everyone has a different risk tolerance.

Have you seen where Leopard's inside helm is? It is better situated in proximity to sail controls than the bulkhead mounted helm stations of many catamarans. The difference is at most a second more to get to a sheet, and maybe even a lot quicker depending on the type of other cat you compare her to.

In fact, I know from experience that the sail controls are much easier, and for me safer to reach and work, on our boat than they were on all of the 5 or 6 other makes of catamarans that I chartered before settling on ours.

All our sheets are an arm's reach from the center of my cockpit, which is almost the same distance from all three of my stations (port & stbd helms and inside nav). They are all operated from a fully upright standing position. I have not timed it, but I bet there would be less than a second difference for me to reach them between our three stations.

Almost always during the day and often at night I steer manually, because I enjoy it. But when it's dark or uncomfortable I often pilot from the inside station, from where I have a clear view of every angle but my two aft quarters. My rules when I do that are:
1) only under conservatively reefed sail (exactly like Leopard did or even more if we are short-handed).
2) Cockpit door and window remains wide open (like most cats, we have a very large cockpit door and sliding window that opens to almost the width of the cockpit.
3) radar is on
4) wind speed alarm is set, again very conservatively
5) an outside 360, and rig check gets done every 10 minutes.

I'm not sure a person at a bulkhead helm will feel/sense/hear a wind change much/enough/any better than I will at the inside helm of our boat, or for that matter at the inside helm of Leopard. And, it doesn't appear that being at the outside helm would have made any difference to Leopard anyway.

I am comfortable with our level of diligence. But I welcome anyone trying to convince me otherwise.....

Cheers

You should also take into account your reaction time when considering the time difference in reaching sail controls.

You'll be more aware of your surroundings outside, so your reaction time will be faster. Plus when you're inside you're likely to be seated, probably relaxing, possibly with a book or a drink or even food. The time it takes for the windspeed alarm to go off, you to hear it, recognize that it's the windspeed alarm, set down your drink/food/book, get up and get to the controls is likely going to be significantly longer than you expect.

Most people sit at or near a helm station expecting that they may need to man the helm. Most people's mindset changes when they're inside the saloon. You won't be in there "waiting on the starting gun" like you would be if you were deliberately timing yourself.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by smj

Nope Polux, never experienced a capsize on a multihull. Didn't realize you had to before being considered an experienced multihuller. My guess is you have almost or zero experience with sailing multihulls. All experience gained on the Internet?
..

To have knowledge about the circumstances that lead to cruising multihull capsizes you only need to have information about a big number of capsizes and the circumstances that lead to them. It is a statics matter requiring information and data.

The experience regarding sailing cruising multihulls is irrelevant unless you have capsized one and then you would have information regarding that particular capsize and the circumstances that lead to them.

Here you have some information regarding a cat sailor that had actually capsized his cat. He referes that the confidence one has on his own cat can be modified after one has capsized it. At least on his case.

I find is statement very informative and interesting coming from an experienced cruising cat sailor that had also experienced capsizing his cat.

The translation is mine, originally on a french Forum:

"...there is nothing worse than the speeches about the almost impossibility to capsize a cruising multihull.

I have experienced a capsize with an Iroquois long ago. I would make a few remarks about capsizing: on all current cata-monuments (I think the Lagoon 450 and the like), the wind surface of the hull/cabin must exceed 20 m² or more: how do run if we really need to reef a boat like that?

After my capsizing, I returned to catamarans, but I have never found the peace I had experienced before. And as soon as it starts to blow, I have the ropes in my hand ready to let go.

I am convinced that most catamarans are capable of capsizing due to a very violent gust, much higher than the mean wind. Except perhaps the warram on which I sailed, which have a very low CG, low windage and whose low sails spill massively when hit by a burst.

I also have sailed monohulls: for me, they are really safer.

I recently bought a small trimaran with submersible amas to test the concept: I appreciate the "visual" aspect. We can see when the float starts to sink and you immediately know where is the limit. The same with small sport's catamaran: We can see the hull lift and have time to react.

For me, that's one of the major handicaps cruising catamarans : it is difficult to know where we are regarding the stability curve. Then there is the sea condition, obviously very important, but regarding that it is the experience that counts."
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...eply&p=2269972

[smj]

Writing of catamarans as being unsafe because of a capsize on an Iroquois would be akin to calling all automobiles unsafe because you rolled a Jeep with a lift kit, which is a well known unstable vehicle.


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