Bali 4.0 - Owner's point of view

[HUFFnPUFF]

2m waves and 2 meters swell was giving me 7 to 12 ft waves. They where coming over my bow. While you see this in the atlantic. I don't typically see it in the Caribbean.

[Wandering1]

Originally Posted by HUFFnPUFF

2m waves and 2 meters swell was giving me 7 to 12 ft waves. They where coming over my bow. While you see this in the atlantic. I don't typically see it in the Caribbean.

The prevailing wind and seas come from the Atlantic. The gap between islands is often an acceleration zone. Of course the seas will be like the Atlantic. Around the back of some of the islands you get reverse currency so often wind again tide. I have seen that pick up vertical 12ft seas on the North Coast of Guadeloupe.

[HUFFnPUFF]

Originally Posted by Wandering1

The prevailing wind and seas come from the Atlantic. The gap between islands is often an acceleration zone. Of course the seas will be like the Atlantic. Around the back of some of the islands you get reverse currency so often wind again tide. I have seen that pick up vertical 12ft seas on the North Coast of Guadeloupe.

I don't doubt you at all. I just avoid sailing when the seas are that rough. I did do a sail and have some data for you. Will post tomorrow.

[HUFFnPUFF]

Ok, so I had an interesting sail and thought it would be a good one for the topic of close haul. I had a sail where I was fighting a 1.3 kt current just off my starboard, winds where relatively light for the wave height (2.1 meters). I adjusted the track to be pointing directly into the wind (purple line). When you look at the tack angle, you can definitely see the impact the current had on my tack. Anyway... have fun with it.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by HUFFnPUFF

Ok, so I had an interesting sail and thought it would be a good one for the topic of close haul. I had a sail where I was fighting a 1.3 kt current just off my starboard, winds where relatively light for the wave height (2.1 meters). I adjusted the track to be pointing directly into the wind (purple line). When you look at the tack angle, you can definitely see the impact the current had on my tack. Anyway... have fun with it.

Sailing against current in relatively light winds is an exercise in perseverance. Always fun to sail if you can though, well done. First photo is one of our tracks tacking up a narrow channel (Port Philip Bay near Sorrento, Australia) against an out-going tide.

Second photo is tacking up a narrow channel (Namatota Channel, Triton Bay, Indonesia) with lots of wind (first reef in the main) and one knot of current with us. Makes the tacking angles look really good!

[HUFFnPUFF]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Sailing against current in relatively light winds is an exercise in perseverance. Always fun to sail if you can though, well done. First photo is one of our tracks tacking up a narrow channel (Port Philip Bay near Sorrento, Australia) against an out-going tide.

Second photo is tacking up a narrow channel (Namatota Channel, Triton Bay, Indonesia) with lots of wind (first reef in the main) and one knot of current with us. Makes the tacking angles look really good!

I typically sail at 40 to 50 awa... so my TWA will be greater than that. What I am noticing is the lower she sits in the water, the slower I go . So, this summer when I pull her out, I will be raising my waterline by 2 inches. She is pretty full with all the crap we have onboard.

[Wandering1]

Originally Posted by HUFFnPUFF

I typically sail at 40 to 50 awa... so my TWA will be greater than that. What I am noticing is the lower she sits in the water, the slower I go . So, this summer when I pull her out, I will be raising my waterline by 2 inches. She is pretty full with all the crap we have onboard.

If you want to maintain performance on a catamaran, you don't want to raise the waterline, you want to remove all the crap. Overloaded catamarans sail badly. Overloaded catamarans have an increased risk of structural damage. An overloaded catamaran will beat itself up in big seas. The additional weight also puts more stress on the rig.
Cats have a catch 22. All that space is begging to be filled. You fill it at your peril

[ozolli]

Originally Posted by Wandering1

you don't want to raise the waterline, you want to remove all the crap.

Removing the crap will raise the waterline. What didn't I understand in your sentence ?

[HUFFnPUFF]

Yeah... I will remove some items. But, I am not a minimalist so it will always be heaving and its just something I have to deal with. Yesterday, i sailed from St. Lucia to St. Vincent. Winds were on the beam blowing between 12 and 14 kts and I averaged about 6.2 kts when removing my time with engines on. I turned the engines on for an hour when I had to outrun a storm cell and I reached 7.5 to 8.2 kts during that hour. But without engines... it sat between 6 and 6.5 for the most part.

I still need folding props and I will be adding a Code 0 which would have been perfect for this trip. Not sure how much faster I would have been... Time will tell.

[LAGERTHA]

Adding a code 0 will be a game changer for you. Fortunately for us, we found a fairly new used code 0, and we fly it whenever we could. Simply love it.

[yeloya]

Originally Posted by Wandering1

Yep, never seen any of these boats sail well to weather in real life. Flat water compared to proper waves between Caribbean islands makes a massive difference to a cat. They all take a step to leeward as they cross over waves adding dramatically to their leeway. Without deep daggerboards, they are in the turbulent surface water of the waves. Their massive windage is dominant. You only need to look at the side profile of these cats with their mini keels to understand why they don't sail up wind. Compare with a deep draft fin equiped monohull, and it all becomes obvious.

Hello Wandering,

I wonder what type of cat and mono have you been sailing and for how long. I own 5 cats of various brands including a Catana 47 that I mostly sail, but I've sailed others as well, including Outremer 51,even a Gunboat 67 for a short period. I also sailed many monos , raced with some of them. You were asking so I sailed the Atlantic twice in both directions and the entire Med three times. Unfortunately I haven't sailed the make and model of yr mono so I cannot comment. When comparing any mono with any cat , one should do it apple to apple. If we are comparing Bali or FP type of charter cats, then we should compare with Jeanneau, Beneteau , Bavaria type of boats. We should also take into account whether they were from the era before being "charterized " or recent models.
1-Old boats, regardless they are mono or cat were sailing much better than the current ones. If you compare old FP like Bahia or Belize for example or Lagoon 380, they are much better then their current models.
2-same applies to monos, new monos with shallow keels, large cockpit, almost triangular shape, don't go upwind at all and are giving terrible leeway comparable to worse cats.
3-If we are talking about X Yachts, Gran Soleil, Dehler type of monos, then we should compare them with Catana or Outremer type of dagger board cats, not with Balis or the like.
4-its true that monos have better load carrying capacity or more correctly they are less sensitive to extra load because they are already heavy with their keels that they need to carry to stay upright.
5-trying to predict the sail performance of any boat looking at their factory supplied specs and polar diagram is useless. They are all wrong as we measured some of them, there were discrapancies in weight up to 15-20 %..There could be some exceptions but I haven't seen yet. And the most determinig factor which is hull beam to length ratio is never given by factories..

Lastly, I've also found the OP's upwind performance a bit surprising to say the least.I've sailed Bali 4.1 and some other Balis, in relatively calm waters the tacking angles were around 120 degrees. None of them had a folding props, I am sure that would help a lot..But who cares, as long as the owner is happy..

Cheers

Yeloya

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by LAGERTHA

Adding a code 0 will be a game changer for you. Fortunately for us, we found a fairly new used code 0, and we fly it whenever we could. Simply love it.

Changing to a folding or feathering prop will be more of a game changer for the Bali. It will mean you go almost a knot faster on all points of sail.

[HUFFnPUFF]

Thanks... I keep hearing good things about folding props and code 0s. I will have the folding props in August and not sure when i can get my code 0. Still have some rigging work left to do.

[LAGERTHA]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Changing to a folding or feathering prop will be more of a game changer for the Bali. It will mean you go almost a knot faster on all points of sail.

We have folding props, and they do make a nominal difference when they are maintained & clean. It is still my owner's point of view that I can on average 2+ knots more with a code 0.

[Wandering1]

Originally Posted by yeloya

Hello Wandering,

I wonder what type of cat and mono have you been sailing and for how long. I own 5 cats of various brands including a Catana 47 that I mostly sail, but I've sailed others as well, including Outremer 51,even a Gunboat 67 for a short period. I also sailed many monos , raced with some of them. You were asking so I sailed the Atlantic twice in both directions and the entire Med three times. Unfortunately I haven't sailed the make and model of yr mono so I cannot comment. When comparing any mono with any cat , one should do it apple to apple. If we are comparing Bali or FP type of charter cats, then we should compare with Jeanneau, Beneteau , Bavaria type of boats. We should also take into account whether they were from the era before being "charterized " or recent models.
1-Old boats, regardless they are mono or cat were sailing much better than the current ones. If you compare old FP like Bahia or Belize for example or Lagoon 380, they are much better then their current models.
2-same applies to monos, new monos with shallow keels, large cockpit, almost triangular shape, don't go upwind at all and are giving terrible leeway comparable to worse cats.
3-If we are talking about X Yachts, Gran Soleil, Dehler type of monos, then we should compare them with Catana or Outremer type of dagger board cats, not with Balis or the like.
4-its true that monos have better load carrying capacity or more correctly they are less sensitive to extra load because they are already heavy with their keels that they need to carry to stay upright.
5-trying to predict the sail performance of any boat looking at their factory supplied specs and polar diagram is useless. They are all wrong as we measured some of them, there were discrapancies in weight up to 15-20 %..There could be some exceptions but I haven't seen yet. And the most determinig factor which is hull beam to length ratio is never given by factories..

Lastly, I've also found the OP's upwind performance a bit surprising to say the least.I've sailed Bali 4.1 and some other Balis, in relatively calm waters the tacking angles were around 120 degrees. None of them had a folding props, I am sure that would help a lot..But who cares, as long as the owner is happy..

Cheers

Yeloya

I don't disagree with any of that. You have very similar experience to me