Bringing a Cross 38 back from the Dead

[DreamBig]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

Hey, I'm also on your other thread.

While I was building my steel ketch I was also in company of two guys building a Piver and Cross tri. I would climb on those boats all the time during their build, and know them both pretty well, the construction lasted the better part of 3 years. Anything I see you do, I might give a shout out.

I also wrote a book about the whole experience. I'll send you a PM about it, if you are interested. It will give you an insight to the task you've decided to take on.

absolutely speak up, my first wood boat build, and sailboat build, I have built 4 aluminum duck boats though, and refit 3 sail boats.


I love to read, so, I would love to read your book depending on price of course.. Have to watch those nickles lately, my pocket has ruptured a west system leak... lol

[DreamBig]

Originally Posted by Paul Howard

Here at Toronto Multihull Cruising Club we have several Pivers, Cross, Searunners and Crowther Buccaneers from the 70's, as well as many more modern boats.
The older boats have been through a few refits. I have been a member here for 21 years. Go to our website (torontomultihullclub) for some photos.

Those double diagnol planked versions I have seen have been a species of mohogany plywood for the hull as it would bend and twist easier than douglas fir that is more likely to splinter.
Some Advice:

These boats are relatively simple shapes and anything can be fixed.
Begin by fixing all exterior problems first, hulls, decks, etc., as if you begin making interior modifications you may find that you must tear out something you have just done to get to a portion of the hull or deck to repair it.

Look closely to the lockers in the side decks and amas, as rain water often collects among the framing joints and causes rot. There is little ventilation in these areas. Look for poorly ventilated areas, small cubbyholes and lockers and search for rot.
I have seen some of these older trimarans break off an ama when sailing because of rot in closed chambers.

Epoxy is your best friend. Read the West System manual.
My own boat is 23years old (catamaran) was professionally built with Epoxy/ red cedar strip hulls and Douglas Fir marine grade plywood decks (yes, as above, to cut costs). The decks were epoxy saturated at build and painted, but did not have a fibergalss cloth coating on them.

Because of the open grain on the Douglas Fir plywood the grain raises and splits the paint, especially here where our winters get very cold. even a small break of less than 1/2" can lead to moisture intrusion and cause delamination and rot in the plywood layers many times larger than the small break in the paint. Search carefully for any breaks in the paint, grind out to solid wood, epoxy saturate, cover with fiberglass cloth, fair and paint.
Good luck.

They are everywhere.. I have been spot filling with 4200 in large amounts so I can go back over later and grind out and refit correctly and not miss any. the concrete deck paint anti skid is not helping find them either. I am open to suggestions on plan, but this is what I have so far

I will have a total of about 9 gallons of epoxy at my disposal, previous owner had about 3 and I ordered 4.35, depending on hardeners used it should be around (9 gallonsish.) maybe, haven't put pen to paper on that. I am thinking starting with 10 sheets of okume marine grade ply but I don't know what species yet to be sure.. Most warehouses look at you funny when you ask what species is it? Hell 3/8" ply in my neck of the woods is HARD to find. So I might go back with 1/2" as 3/8" is double the price.. I really think I need about 6 sheets to all that I want... but wouldn't mind have a few under the bunks for later use as we cruise if need be. port ama, and window riser areas will be a bunch, cockpit sole, and possibly two bulk heads in cockpit, I have a small spot in after cabin deck that will need attention, and a couple hull to deck joints I don't like on both amas, I also will be fitting a generator and condensate water maker "my own design" in the vacant engine room. The wing hatches will be in cockpit are going to become motor wells, for either a 15hp and spare dingy motor, or two 9.9 hp four strokes. I like to sail, and only motor when need be, in fact if I had the money it would be a brush-less electric system with lifepo4 battery bank, yet, I am 42 with four kids and blue collar business owner (who was more like robin hood than a capitalist). Who does everything with positive cash flow.... or maybe I should say zero debt. If I sell my house 175k ish I would be in a different state of mind, yet, my wife and kids may not have the same love for the ocean that I do. So, we are gonna find out. :-) on the cheap safe side of things... lol

Having me a bourbon, and getting ready to grind some aluminum water tanks... I know, it's just the way I work at night.... :-)

Cheers,

James

[Sand crab]

I'm not sure of the placement of the wing hatches but my old tri had a 9.9 mounted to an ama. It was on the starboard ama and always wanted to turn to port. Backing up was almost impossible so I would just rotate the boat at the dock by hand but mine was smaller and lighter than yours. I suggest 2 motors if they are mounted off center or maybe just one if you can get it in the center. On cats the 2 motors are really cool because you can spin the boat almost in it's own length just by putting one motor in forward and one in reverse. Your boat should do almost the same with 2.
And I'll join in on the chorus about putting off the interior mods until you have the exterior done. I suspect that you will be "done" when that is.

[MicHughV]

I sent you a PM regarding the book.....but never sure about that method of contacting anyone...

[Captn_Black]

Originally Posted by DreamBig

Hey everyone,

I want to create a space for a general discussion about my Cross 38 salvation... Or we hope. There will be daily videos, and daily inputs here. Enjoy

Cheers,

James

Cool, may watch a few, I prefer this content over much of the generic YT sailing stuff that is around these days.

[MicHughV]

The guy that built that Piver, I told you about, had a 15 hp Honda 4-stroke mounted in his cockpit. It was a bit to one side of the center hull to clear the hull. The Honda could be removed when under sail and he had a " plug" built that could be inserted into that hole when the Honda was not in it.

Seemed to work ok, though in later years, he did install a diesel. That Honda was not very gas efficient and there is off course the " gasoline" issue...

As an aside, I run a twin engined fishing boat. Yamaha's...4 stroke off course, but very thirsty...amazingly very thirsty !!

'jes sayin'.

[johnn33]

Hi DreamBig
If you Google Uffa Fox airborne lifeboats the various sizes of monohull plywood cold moulded (in autoclave) hulls can be seen, and strong enough to be dropped by parachute. Modern glues by Gurit (was SP Systems) or West System are much better than available 80 years ago. Glue in extra ribs as you see fit.

John

[DreamBig]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

The guy that built that Piver, I told you about, had a 15 hp Honda 4-stroke mounted in his cockpit. It was a bit to one side of the center hull to clear the hull. The Honda could be removed when under sail and he had a " plug" built that could be inserted into that hole when the Honda was not in it.

Seemed to work ok, though in later years, he did install a diesel. That Honda was not very gas efficient and there is off course the " gasoline" issue...

As an aside, I run a twin engined fishing boat. Yamaha's...4 stroke off course, but very thirsty...amazingly very thirsty !!

'jes sayin'.

Interesting idea. I would have to see some sort of pictures of that, I do have a complete engine room that is vacant. I assume if you just make sure top of trunk is well above waterline you might not even have to plug.... Man that is a big hole in the bottom of the boat though!!!! It could solve a bunch of issues though.. Hmmmm, probably save time, also.. with a little engineering it could be used as side thrust-er, also. HMMM

New video is up... Again, this is just us getting information about our NEW boat, and tossing ideas out about things we might want to change. This is all while we are waiting on our supply's and weather window to actually fix the rot.. All in good time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3C5-LJnH4g0

[DreamBig]

Originally Posted by johnn33

Hi DreamBig
If you Google Uffa Fox airborne lifeboats the various sizes of monohull plywood cold moulded (in autoclave) hulls can be seen, and strong enough to be dropped by parachute. Modern glues by Gurit (was SP Systems) or West System are much better than available 80 years ago. Glue in extra ribs as you see fit.

John

This brings a very interesting question to the front row. I have found rot in the port ama hull amidship just aft of the hatch. It is in the port side of the port ama if that makes any sense. It is also the inboard layer.. I have knuckle tested, and lightly tapped outboard hull with non marking dead blow hammer , and all seems solid... Most of this rot is above water line...maybe all of it...

Initially, I figured I would have to remove outer layer then repair the inner layer as needed, because of 45 degree installation, that would mean putting a 3-4 hole in the side of ama.. then rebuilding.. I am okay with this, but the more I think about it...

Why break the outer layer if you don't have to, and it has been good for 45 years...

Could I just Lift ama out of water (I have a plan for that.) remove rot carefully from inside, possibly have to remove part of station. Then, replace with new material, glass epoxy from inside, repair damaged station, and build new station to twin/ reinforce that area... Mind you, I am not trying to cut corners, just seems that the possibilities of twist from various forces are much larger the larger the hole in the boat. Plus it's not leak for the outside in, merely from the top down.. Very interested in opinions on this...

[MicHughV]

I posted the Piver outboard motor installation on your other thread in error.

Don't forget those outboards are not light..probably in the 120 lb range...not the easiest thing to manhandle when the going gets rough...

talking about rough, those outboard props wont' extend far below the surface of the water and will likely come out of the water in rough conditions.

it can work, but not ideal....spring for the diesel...you won't be sorry....

[johnn33]

Hi
Any possibility of photos of the worst areas?
John

[MicHughV]

This is why any boat building or rebuilding will cost you twice as much as you think it might and take twice as long.

It's not called a labor of love for nothing.

I got $2 here that sez you will be working on this project way past your estimated deadline.

Don't give up though....never...

[DreamBig]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

This is why any boat building or rebuilding will cost you twice as much as you think it might and take twice as long.

It's not called a labor of love for nothing.

I got $2 here that sez you will be working on this project way past your estimated deadline.

Don't give up though....never...

I absolutely, believe you are correct... but we will see,,, I have worked near some pretty miraculous situations with boats, but this is a very big boat, with ALOT of wood... :-) we will just have to see what all we find. Cheers...

[Captn_Black]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

This is why any boat building or rebuilding will cost you twice as much as you think it might and take twice as long.

It's not called a labor of love for nothing.

I got $2 here that sez you will be working on this project way past your estimated deadline.

Don't give up though....never...

Twice as long and twice as much if you already have experience. I would say at least 3x if not

No one will give you odds on that, MicHugh, it's a sure bet :P

[MicHughV]

here is the thread I inadvertently posted on your other thread.

the Piver outboard installation looked something like this...the hole in the cockpit was not that big...big enough to get the shaft and prop thru' but the main part of the engine was outside the hole. I'm guessing the hole was maybe 15" x 15" or so....it was not very big.

At the end of the day, I believe he put a diesel in, because the prop of that outboard was not very far below the water, and in rough water, tending to come out of the water....though you can get a shaft extension for those outboards now..

And then there was the issue of the fuel tank....his Honda engine used your basic 5 gallon outboard portable fuel tank... a pain in the rear end and gasoline to boot.

Outboards are not very fuel efficient at all as they run at high rpm..

It can work, but not very ideal.

A diesel install can set you back a lot of $$$....engine, shaft, prop, tankage, etc... but at the end of the day, the better solution.