Bringing a Cross 38 back from the Dead

[DreamBig]

new video is up. Don't judge , I am hefty and it was hot, so shirtless it was :-/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEjc5HpCOWQ

[MicHughV]

Building...or re-building a boat is a lot of fun.

I can say without a moment's hesitation, that the 3 odd years it took to build my boat were some of the best days of my life! Blood, sweat and tears to be sure.....but loved it

This thread rekindles a lot of memories.

[DreamBig]

Dymaxion- that is a great question. I haven't heard anyone discuss a drying out period, with Cross or Searunner repairs. That would greatly effect the timeline, and location of renovation. as you would with a caulked wood hull. I also think that done properly each piece should be encapsulated, (or at least that is my plan) then epoxied into place, Thus, if there is a break in capsule it can be isolated to one area. I won't know until I start digging around in there, I guess.

I haven't probed with a awl or punch or really dug deep, merely b/c, I wouldn't want to break the capsule without having some poxy there to repair it. <---Still waiting on poxy to show.. smh ...

I guess I know there is a problem, and it is gonna be bigger than at first glance. no need to open it up until ready to fix.

I could probably ligate moisture by bagging and placing area's under vaccum say-29 inhg for an hour or so. Could that cause a dry type rot? It should open up pores and allow poxy to flow in more, also. Hmmm.. Probably need to wait for experts to chime in on this, just spit balling myself.

I need to read up on the spore "rot" and get a better understanding of the enemy.

Cheers,

James

[DreamBig]

Hey, should I glass the inside of the cabin with 6oz bi-axle glass, also. Should that just be sealed with epoxy?

[catsketcher]

Normal technique is to glass exterior surfaces that get sun or wear and eopxy coat interior surfaces with a couple of coats - enough to get a glazed look over the wood. Use small foam rollers for this job.

[Apollo366]

I sailed form San Diego to Acapulco to Tahiti in an overloaded Piver 37 Ketch generally with no engine after Acapulco, that only meant I had to wait it out if becalmed outside a harbor. I sailed single handed to two of the Tuamotu island, could have done more, but was talked out of it cause I "had no Motor"! They just didn't know how to sail very well!

I finally got a 6 hp Johnson in Tahiti and built a ladder like lowering device so I could move around better in tight spaces and when becalmed.

If doing it again I'd still go with OB and Solar to charge my batts.

Capt Wayne

[Thumbs Up]

Now that I have seen your video I can comment. You have a huge project! Every bit of hull, deck, cabin top that is even slightly soft will have to be cut out well past the soft area, new plywood scarfed in, glassed and faired and painted. You will need many sheets of ply, buckets of epoxy, glass, thickeners, gloves, abrasives, masking tape, solvents, epoxy primer and eventually a paint system. Every thing that attaches to the outside of boat probably has rot under it. With plywood, if you don't completely remove all of rotten bits you are screwed. You are going to need a good heat gun, angle grinders, dust removal. When you repair this type of damage, wet wood is not a problem because you usually remove it back to dry wood. There will also be instances where dry wood is actually rotten. Dry rot was wet when it rotted if you can break the plywood off with a pair of vice grips, cut that part out. After you cut out the rotten part and fix whatever rotted below that you will want to bevel the edge of the repair so can get a nice scarf joint on the repair piece, you make patterns, and epoxy the patch in place, at this point you can smear the excess epoxy "glue" over the repair piece and it will be okay until you decide to glass it. Not trying to be a bummer here just a reality check because I have been there.

[DreamBig]

@thumbs up... I figure most of the port ama will be rebuilt, all the cockpit, and some of cabin roof, all cabin sides. Possibly, most of the aft section of main hull aft of main cabin. I have 10 sheets of ply, 15 gallons of 205, and slow and extra slow hardener to match. To start. Still waiting on the damn 205 to show up though. By the end of all this, I should be an expert or at least approaching expert on all things epoxy and plywood.. :-) probably have arthritis in my fingers from stirring, and pectoral muscle tone. lol. It's a big project, I will keep video rolling, and hopefully ya'll will be able to keep me straight. Thanks in advance for all the tips and advice.

Cheers,

James..

P.s. for those that are on the fence about covid, at least 16 members of my step-sons family have contracted it, from age 3 to 85, more than one of them are very sick, and one currently in ICU and things are not looking good. They were exposed at a funeral for a family member. Stay safe out there.. :-)

[Buzzman]

Another issue you may have, especially with those areas you poked at inside the hull, is that it's probably two layers of ply thick at that point. Those angled pieces or strips usually indicate a 'double diagonal' hull construction - so one layer of strips in one direction, the second layer 45deg or 90deg opposite direction. So maybe you'll need to strip the outside layer as well and probe for how far the rot has 'travelled' between the layers of ply. This, by the way, is a common problem with older ply boats that were less than adequately waterproofed when new.

Another issue to be aware of - and you touched on it in the video talking about the base of the mizzen mast - is that the shrouds are attached to chainplates that run through or are attached through the deck in places, especially the inner stays on the main mast that are just above and to the outside of those rotten front windows.

The stays will have to come off, and probably all the chainplates should be pulled and checked for 'crevice corrosion' behind and where hidden. So it may actually make life easier to get the boat on the hard and take the masts off of it so's you can more easily remove all the hardware so it's not in the way of deck and cabin side repairs. You can also check the shrouds and stays at this time and see if any of them need replacing, which is quite possible. Ask a rigger to show you how to 'untwist' a cable to check if its innards are rusted out.

If, as it seems, that's your plan, then budget for a 'boat shed' so's you can keep working no matter what the whether is doing outside, or your progress will stall and you'll end up giving in. It's not so much shade you need as rain protection, as epoxy and rain aren't fond of each other.

There are threads on here that show ways to build a cheap boat shack, and there are vids on YT as well. But it's still going to be a cuppla grand to build the shed, even if you use cheap supports and poly film for the cladding. Sorta like a giant poly tunnel is what you'll need.

Aim to have it so high that you can stand on the deck without having to bend your back (with the keels on the ground) and that will be about right, because when you want to work on the hulls, you can jack the whole boat up and easily get underneath to work and remain out of the weather.

Obviously, you can't be 'masts up' in the shed, so they need to come off anyhoo.

And echoing what others have said. You'll need a 9" grinder with a sanding disc head on it as there's acres of deck coatings to remove.

Also, I note you say the port bow deck that the PO has 'repaired' is a 'good job'. How do you know? Maybe all he did was paint the raw ply? In order to 'know' for certain you'll need to sand that paint off and check if it's got epoxy under it, and maybe lay some 6oz glass to be sure.

Another thought, DO NOT use 'household silicone' ANYWHERE on the boat. Especially not for sealing gaps or cracks, never mind plumbing fittings. This is a CRAP product that doesn't even work well for what it's designed to do - seal domestic showers - but - and its a BIG but, it ALWAYS leaves a faint 'silicone residue' that you MUST completely remove before recoating the wood underneath with anything, or it simply will not adhere.

If you HAVE to temporarily fill small holes and cracks to stop leaks (and kudos for doing so on the hull that had water in it and is now dry...!!) use latex-based filler like No More Gaps, as this is easy to work, cleans up in water, and doesn't leave the same 'no stick' residue when removed. Not UV safe at all, so is def. 'temp' but is better for the reasons stated.

Also, I noticed you mentioned removing and not replacing insulation in the deckhead. If you do so you will later realise this was a mistake as it helps keep condensation out of the boat and makes it cooler in summer and warmer in winter.

If access to the underside of the deck is a concern, then simply don't glue the 'ceiling' in, simply screw it up with screws and cup washers. Google these. They often aren't easy to find, but you can get them from specialist suppliers.

So if the deckhead doesn't have beams (which it should have) then glue in blocks where you will need to attach the screws to hold up the ceiling layer.

Doing this also makes it easier to run wires and later change any deck fittings (whether adding or subtracting) as it's easier to keep the nuts under the deckhead, then insulation over that, then ceiling layer finally. Gives a nice, clean-looking ceiling, and no nasty dome nuts hanging down to bang your head on. But insulate. Yeah.

It's also a good idea on the berths to do a layer of rubber slatting and then soft EVA foam (like foam floor tiles that lock together - cheap from HD etc) as this also keeps mould out of the bed mattresses. the rubber slatting [provides air movement and the EVA foam raises the dew point so moisture doesn't condense, motherwise you alwyas get a wet patch under foam mattresses directly on ply. Which then rots the ply.

Eva foam is also fine for ceiling insulation - don't use that horrible glass-fibre matting stuff. Gets everywhere and itches like hell.

That'll do for now!

[MicHughV]

The above post by Buzzman is probably the best, most comprehensive and thorough reply I have read here. Excellent job !!!

This is not a 3 month project !! Get used to that reality !! Seriously, shelve the 3 month idea !! 3 years more likely, and I totally agree about the shed idea. Totally!! An inexpensive plastic tarp shed is not difficult to construct. You may have to replace the plastic from time to time though, but as long as the framework is solid you will be fine.

Yes, I know you got this boat for a song, but by the time you are finished, you are going to have a substantial investment in it, not only money, but also your time and the time of others.

And I tell you once again, with your family onboard, a safe vessel will be a happy vessel!!

I think we all admire your pluck and go get 'em approach. You need that to tackle a project like this. Taking longer than 3 months is not a failure, it is simple reality. If you start to rush things you will come to regret it and there is nothing worse than having to do the same thing twice due to impatience.

Listen to the voice of experience and wisdom above !!!!

.

[DreamBig]

First, thank you for this reply, it is well thought out, and your points are all on the spot

Originally Posted by Buzzman

Another issue you may have, especially with those areas you poked at inside the hull, is that it's probably two layers of ply thick at that point. Those angled pieces or strips usually indicate a 'double diagonal' hull construction - so one layer of strips in one direction, the second layer 45deg or 90deg opposite direction. So maybe you'll need to strip the outside layer as well and probe for how far the rot has 'travelled' between the layers of ply. This, by the way, is a common problem with older ply boats that were less than adequately waterproofed when new.

I am figuring on this, and actually concerned that to do this in the water might distort the ama hull, especially with the mast up. Based on the size of the hole that will likely come to be.

Another issue to be aware of - and you touched on it in the video talking about the base of the mizzen mast - is that the shrouds are attached to chainplates that run through or are attached through the deck in places, especially the inner stays on the main mast that are just above and to the outside of those rotten front windows.

yes, I figure this all will have to be done. She is sitting in a very calm spot. Thus loads on the rigging are minimal, but still there, I am hoping with main and jig halyards to be able to release them one at a time and check these. If for no other purpose then to make her safe enough to travel to be hauled.

The stays will have to come off, and probably all the chainplates should be pulled and checked for 'crevice corrosion' behind and where hidden. So it may actually make life easier to get the boat on the hard and take the masts off of it so's you can more easily remove all the hardware so it's not in the way of deck and cabin side repairs. You can also check the shrouds and stays at this time and see if any of them need replacing, which is quite possible. Ask a rigger to show you how to 'untwist' a cable to check if its innards are rusted out.

If, as it seems, that's your plan, then budget for a 'boat shed' so's you can keep working no matter what the whether is doing outside, or your progress will stall and you'll end up giving in. It's not so much shade you need as rain protection, as epoxy and rain aren't fond of each other.

Okay, so this is has been plan "B" the whole time. It seems like it quite possibly will be the reality. So, questions or comments. For this idea to work, and be on budget I will have to bring her home, which poses it's own problems. I have two options, one is haul out, pull ama's, masts, ship to my house, build lofting/ boat shed and go from there.

2. Pull masts, then float her up the trinity river, to our dam, Haul her and trailer her about 1 mile to float her across my lake to my water front to haul, then shed and so forth.

Option three, would be to float her up the river, haul at dam, remove ama's, then trailer 4.5miles, to property. It's just not feasible for me to do the work remotely for that long, it will take more like 10 years in that fashion,not to mention put everyone's lives on hold to do it. Keep in mind she only weighs 5 tons. Not 20tons. :-)

There are threads on here that show ways to build a cheap boat shack, and there are vids on YT as well. But it's still going to be a cuppla grand to build the shed, even if you use cheap supports and poly film for the cladding. Sorta like a giant poly tunnel is what you'll need.


Aim to have it so high that you can stand on the deck without having to bend your back (with the keels on the ground) and that will be about right, because when you want to work on the hulls, you can jack the whole boat up and easily get underneath to work and remain out of the weather.



Obviously, you can't be 'masts up' in the shed, so they need to come off anyhoo.

yeppers


And echoing what others have said. You'll need a 9" grinder with a sanding disc head on it as there's acres of deck coatings to remove.

I was thinking a hard wood floor type sander like a 24" pad type not drum type. Probably a 9" also. I have two 9" grinders, maybe three.

Also, I note you say the port bow deck that the PO has 'repaired' is a 'good job'. How do you know? Maybe all he did was paint the raw ply? In order to 'know' for certain you'll need to sand that paint off and check if it's got epoxy under it, and maybe lay some 6oz glass to be sure.

You are correct, it will have to be inspected

Another thought, DO NOT use 'household silicone' ANYWHERE on the boat. Especially not for sealing gaps or cracks, never mind plumbing fittings. This is a CRAP product that doesn't even work well for what it's designed to do - seal domestic showers - but - and its a BIG but, it ALWAYS leaves a faint 'silicone residue' that you MUST completely remove before recoating the wood underneath with anything, or it simply will not adhere.

I actually knew this, but didn't know there was an alternative, I didn't want to us 4200 and 5200 just to remove shortly there after. Good to know, I will pick some up. I figured on having to grind it all out possibly remove all that wood anyhow. It is very possible, the entire deck will come off and be rebuilt.. :-) <--- yep that sounds like 3 years of work.

If you HAVE to temporarily fill small holes and cracks to stop leaks (and kudos for doing so on the hull that had water in it and is now dry...!!) use latex-based filler like No More Gaps, as this is easy to work, cleans up in water, and doesn't leave the same 'no stick' residue when removed. Not UV safe at all, so is def. 'temp' but is better for the reasons stated.

Also, I noticed you mentioned removing and not replacing insulation in the deckhead. If you do so you will later realise this was a mistake as it helps keep condensation out of the boat and makes it cooler in summer and warmer in winter.
I would like to make it easy to remove, so maybe some sort of velcro, or through tabbed system. (thinking like a dodger) yeah, eva foam make since here. Should I leave an air gap between insulation and wood to allow for air circulation. That could possibly leave a dew point in the gap and lead to condensation problems. The other idea would be to spray foam it. It would be a pain to work on later. All wiring would have to be in conduit, but she would be strong and well insulated.

If access to the underside of the deck is a concern, then simply don't glue the 'ceiling' in, simply screw it up with screws and cup washers. Google these. They often aren't easy to find, but you can get them from specialist suppliers.

I will look these up.

So if the deckhead doesn't have beams (which it should have) then glue in blocks where you will need to attach the screws to hold up the ceiling layer.



Doing this also makes it easier to run wires and later change any deck fittings (whether adding or subtracting) as it's easier to keep the nuts under the deck-head, then insulation over that, then ceiling layer finally. Gives a nice, clean-looking ceiling, and no nasty dome nuts hanging down to bang your head on. But insulate. Yeah.



It's also a good idea on the berths to do a layer of rubber slating and then soft EVA foam (like foam floor tiles that lock together - cheap from HD etc) as this also keeps mold out of the bed mattresses. the rubber slating [provides air movement and the EVA foam raises the dew point so moisture doesn't condense, otherwise you always get a wet patch under foam mattresses directly on ply. Which then rots the ply.

starboard berth is actually like this already, port berth bed is on starboard side currently.

Eva foam is also fine for ceiling insulation - don't use that horrible glass-fibre matting stuff. Gets everywhere and itches like hell.

That'll do for now!

Thanks again... sounds like a lot of videos. :-) A whole lot!!!

Cheers,

James

[MicHughV]

I have seen a lot of home built boats made...a lot...people have " moved" into a small camper trailer to live while they are working on the boat in a different location.

I started like that.

At first, it was a daily commute from my rented house.....by bike no less...about 7 miles each way.

Then I got a camper trailer, which I located next to my " build"...at that time, nothing but frames, so I could work over the weekends, etc.

The camper trailer was also used as a toolshed.

Then I constructed a " workshed" to house all my my tools and materials, so I didn't have to schlep these all over the place.

Then I just moved into the trailer altogether. Took a bit of convincing for the wife, but...I've known others, who moved wife and kids, into another plywood room built next to the "workshop"....

...and....saved a lot of house rent money to boot !!

Only thing available to me was a water hose and electricity, but made it all work over time.

And time just kept slipping away.

In the end, I was still able to sell the camper trailer.

Y'know the old biblical saying...." if the mountain won't come to Mohammed, then Mohammed must go to the mountain"

Instead of trying to move the boat closer.....move closer to the boat.

You are going to be there for a while !!! I'm tellin' ya.....gotta look at 3 years here.. !!!

[DreamBig]

@MichughV- Hmm...I don't see that happening, Especially, with all the virus stuff going on..
(i.e. Grandma is incubated now, and praying for her death to come... 77 years on this planet, to die alone, and without funeral services. We still have hope for her, but CoVid occupies 75% of lungs, and pneumonia occupies 23%. Doesn't look good. My parents are in there 70's, also. I take care of their property maintenance, so, leaving for years at a time or moving is not likely an option. I own my home free and clear, and have the room, tools, shops, and family to make it all happen here. Quite frankly, I could pull masts rigging , bits and bobs, i.e chain plates, quadrants, hardware's, rudder, scrap boat and build new here. With removable Ama's for trailering. Least, I like the nostalgia of this old boat, she is old, she has been poorly maintained, but it would be nice to breathe new life into her, and give her a fair shake at life again..

I am green at this as everyone knows for sure, and I am very very grateful to have each and everyone of your inputs... My engineering mind is quite creative, I am sure this will be displayed a time or two once this project actually gets off and running. It's gonna be a project. I will have to move mountains to make it happen. Hopefully, with the help of a higher power (I am sure), we can make it happen... Stay tuned.

Cheers,

James

New video is up....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNUgZ6zpPKs

[MicHughV]

I hear ya....family first is my mantra !!!

[Sand crab]

I am not sure that you want to do this project, I wouldn't and I'm a retired contractor. The areas below the waterline are still in question and it looks like you won't know until you have done all the other work. The boat needs everything!!! My needle is starting to tilt to the not worth the effort side.
I hate to be negative Nancy but it a s**tload of effort and many boatbucks for a boat that might be worth $50k. Could be a bit more but not by much.