Broad Reach in higher windspeeds / at night

[smj]

Originally Posted by Nicholson58

Easy. Staysail and mizzen.



Add a barber to your outside Genoa track and pull the staysail clew wherever you want it.

Hard to find a catamaran with a mizzen, though there were a few built.

[catsketcher]

Headsails pull the bows away from the breeze, mains push your bum into the breeze. A broad reach with lots of wind requires a boat to be pulled downwind so the genoa should be doing the lions share of the work. If you are sailing downwind in biggish winds at night then ask the boat what it wants. If the boat feels balanced with a full genoa, or reefed genoa and you go fast with this then great. I tie my barber hauler to a midships cleat which makes a huge difference. I do not think a mainsail is needed for downwind sailing to keep the mast in column. A reefed main will pull the mast back in the middle which is not what you want, usually mast have forward prebend down low. Motoring into a chop with no main up is probably the worst for the mast.

As you come onto a beam reach the boat will develop lee helm, so you need some mainsail to push the boat into the wind. Listen to the boat, get the helm balanced and have fun. I don't like how most cats oversheet the main, as it makes the boat a bit harder to steer. Running broad though, go the genoa or reacher and leave the main in the bag unless you need the extra power.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by catsketcher

Headsails pull the bows away from the breeze, mains push your bum into the breeze. A broad reach with lots of wind requires a boat to be pulled downwind so the genoa should be doing the lions share of the work. If you are sailing downwind in biggish winds at night then ask the boat what it wants. If the boat feels balanced with a full genoa, or reefed genoa and you go fast with this then great. I tie my barber hauler to a midships cleat which makes a huge difference. I do not think a mainsail is needed for downwind sailing to keep the mast in column. A reefed main will pull the mast back in the middle which is not what you want, usually mast have forward prebend down low. Motoring into a chop with no main up is probably the worst for the mast.

As you come onto a beam reach the boat will develop lee helm, so you need some mainsail to push the boat into the wind. Listen to the boat, get the helm balanced and have fun. I don't like how most cats oversheet the main, as it makes the boat a bit harder to steer. Running broad though, go the genoa or reacher and leave the main in the bag unless you need the extra power.

think of AP vey carefully. AP does not like sailing without main. As it fails during storm, you will remember my words and promise to god never to sail without main again if you coume out alive. You may get lucky or not.

[Palarran]

Originally Posted by catsketcher

Headsails pull the bows away from the breeze, mains push your bum into the breeze. A broad reach with lots of wind requires a boat to be pulled downwind so the genoa should be doing the lions share of the work. If you are sailing downwind in biggish winds at night then ask the boat what it wants. If the boat feels balanced with a full genoa, or reefed genoa and you go fast with this then great. I tie my barber hauler to a midships cleat which makes a huge difference. I do not think a mainsail is needed for downwind sailing to keep the mast in column. A reefed main will pull the mast back in the middle which is not what you want, usually mast have forward prebend down low. Motoring into a chop with no main up is probably the worst for the mast.

As you come onto a beam reach the boat will develop lee helm, so you need some mainsail to push the boat into the wind. Listen to the boat, get the helm balanced and have fun. I don't like how most cats oversheet the main, as it makes the boat a bit harder to steer. Running broad though, go the genoa or reacher and leave the main in the bag unless you need the extra power.

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

think of AP vey carefully. AP does not like sailing without main. As it fails during storm, you will remember my words and promise to god never to sail without main again if you coume out alive. You may get lucky or not.

Arsenelupiga, maybe you are projecting a problem you had with your autopilot onto the wrong post. I actually thought catsketcher's post was as correct as your going to get. The autopilot would love to go sailing downwind with a head sail only and not so much beam reaching with an unbalanced sail plan. Maybe you read the post wrong.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Palarran

Arsenelupiga, maybe you are projecting a problem you had with your autopilot onto the wrong post. I actually thought catsketcher's post was as correct as your going to get. The autopilot would love to go sailing downwind with a head sail only and not so much beam reaching with an unbalanced sail plan. Maybe you read the post wrong.

you may be right. if i get enough jib out to sail, close to ddw then my rudders feel bit mushy - not having enough bite. Pull of the sail is too high and rotational force larger than if you have bit of jib and bit of main. I am quite happy to sail wing/wing so notice difference. This may be boat specific.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

you may be right. if i get enough jib out to sail, close to ddw then my rudders feel bit mushy - not having enough bite. Pull of the sail is too high and rotational force larger than if you have bit of jib and bit of main. I am quite happy to sail wing/wing so notice difference. This may be boat specific.

I’m not sure I understand how your jib alone DDW has the pull up high. Your jib like mine is triangular in shape - mine is quite high aspect as it’s a self-tacker and I’m not sure about yours. But the centre of effort is at least 2/3 of the way down the sail due to the upper very narrow parts.

In 20+ knots (AWS) DDW if we’re feeling a bit lazy we’ll put away the main, barber haul the jib so it’s nicely 90 degrees to the wind and pulling evenly all the way up, and just relax as the boat does all the work. The AP doesn’t work hard at all and wave surfs are plentiful. This may be because we have longer and skinnier hulls than you (helping the tracking) but maybe the mushy feeling in your rudders is lower speed and less water flow?

[nfbr]

Originally Posted by fxykty

I’m not sure I understand how your jib alone DDW has the pull up high. Your jib like mine is triangular in shape - mine is quite high aspect as it’s a self-tacker and I’m not sure about yours. But the centre of effort is at least 2/3 of the way down the sail due to the upper very narrow parts.

In 20+ knots (AWS) DDW if we’re feeling a bit lazy we’ll put away the main, barber haul the jib so it’s nicely 90 degrees to the wind and pulling evenly all the way up, and just relax as the boat does all the work. The AP doesn’t work hard at all and wave surfs are plentiful. This may be because we have longer and skinnier hulls than you (helping the tracking) but maybe the mushy feeling in your rudders is lower speed and less water flow?

What do you barber haul to that far forward?
Does your self tacker have a block on it? Could you post a pic or drawing?

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by fxykty

I’m not sure I understand how your jib alone DDW has the pull up high. Your jib like mine is triangular in shape - mine is quite high aspect as it’s a self-tacker and I’m not sure about yours. But the centre of effort is at least 2/3 of the way down the sail due to the upper very narrow parts.

In 20+ knots (AWS) DDW if we’re feeling a bit lazy we’ll put away the main, barber haul the jib so it’s nicely 90 degrees to the wind and pulling evenly all the way up, and just relax as the boat does all the work. The AP doesn’t work hard at all and wave surfs are plentiful. This may be because we have longer and skinnier hulls than you (helping the tracking) but maybe the mushy feeling in your rudders is lower speed and less water flow?

there are 2 points that drive boat forward when jib only.
1. attachment of jib furling mechanism to mast
2. winch that is used for jib sheet.

Say these 2 forces pull same force forward, meaning equivalent 1 point pull forward is around 10 m above waterline - on our boat.

This force raises stern and pushes down bow.

If you add main, assuming same sail size in total like jib alone, force will be around 8 m above waterline hence less 'broaching' force. So rudders may be less efficient. Just my guess here.

Also Lagoon manual recommends always to use main. So I prefer wing on wing same sail size than say gennaker only, as it is easier to handle if wind picks up quick. And is much nicer and faster drive.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by nfbr

What do you barber haul to that far forward?

Does your self tacker have a block on it? Could you post a pic or drawing?

We transfer all the load on the jib sheet to a secondary sheet that we tie to the clew and lead through a snatch block on the hull rail and back to a winch. This isn’t really a barber haul as that would be a line from a block or LFR on the sheet that pulls the sheet to the side. I just used the term as shorthand, sorry.

The snatch block is about half the distance between the tack and jib sheet lead, about 2.5m forward of the athwartship jib track, so it has a strong downward pull that keeps the leach closed. The foot of the jib is 4.65m and the snatch block is 3.1m from the centreline so the foot is pretty stretched out as well.

[Jim Cate]

there are 2 points that drive boat forward when jib only.
1. attachment of jib furling mechanism to mast
2. winch that is used for jib sheet.

Ummm... what about the bottom of the forestay? Seems that you forgot that in your thought process... I reckon that it pulls forward just as much as the top end.

Jim

[catsketcher]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

think of AP vey carefully. AP does not like sailing without main. As it fails during storm, you will remember my words and promise to god never to sail without main again if you coume out alive. You may get lucky or not.

You have me confused. Does AP mean "apparent wind" or autopilot? Going into a storm needing a main is fine if you need to reach or go to windward, but running deep, you don't need, or usually want, a main. I am very happy to sail without a main in heaps of situations. many times a main is exactly the sail you don't want, when running in really nasty weather.

Mains are lovely sails, I use mine lots, but a boat runs deep best when the CE is in front of the CLR. This is best done by having the genoa out front, or even better a kite if you like (but not at night).

A squall can be dealt with by furling the genny and you sit pretty bare polesw going dead downwind - my boat can do 8 knots in a big breeze this way. When the boat gets lee helm under genny only, that is the boat saying, "I need more mainsheet on, or mainsail up". We just did a coastal trip a few days ago where we broad reached in a solid 20 with just the genny up - it was messy and I didn't want more speed. The boat liked it. Then the wind came more onto the beam we got some lee helm, so we put a reefed main up and she liked that too. Nice and balanced. I can pull my main up by sheeting on the jib, getting on a close reach and winding the main up, no worries, no engines and definitely never ever ever head to wind to raise it.

If you want to learn how to listen to a boat, get a boat like a 420 or such and sail without the rudder, learn how to balance the boat with sails and use the rudder as a fine control. If you fight it, you are doing it wrong. Your boat will always tell you what it wants if you listen to it and feel the helm - get it light and centred and good things will happen.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Ummm... what about the bottom of the forestay? Seems that you forgot that in your thought process... I reckon that it pulls forward just as much as the top end.

Jim

i know what you mean but angle of forestay at the bottom is pulling boat back. This force is equalized by hull. SO that part is not contributing to forward drive. Upper part force is under say 40 deg angle and part of horizontal component of this force is driving the boat by pulling mast forward in single point when wind blows. If no wind, this is in balance.

Say parasailor also uses mast single point to pull boat forward. Bow blocks only pull boat up in the air, only little component of that force helps driving forward .

Without main there is single point on mast that does all the work. At 10 kn boat speed these forces are enormous. With main this force is halved or thereabout.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by catsketcher

You have me confused. Does AP mean "apparent wind" or autopilot? Going into a storm needing a main is fine if you need to reach or go to windward, but running deep, you don't need, or usually want, a main. I am very happy to sail without a main in heaps of situations. many times a main is exactly the sail you don't want, when running in really nasty weather.

Mains are lovely sails, I use mine lots, but a boat runs deep best when the CE is in front of the CLR. This is best done by having the genoa out front, or even better a kite if you like (but not at night).

A squall can be dealt with by furling the genny and you sit pretty bare polesw going dead downwind - my boat can do 8 knots in a big breeze this way. When the boat gets lee helm under genny only, that is the boat saying, "I need more mainsheet on, or mainsail up". We just did a coastal trip a few days ago where we broad reached in a solid 20 with just the genny up - it was messy and I didn't want more speed. The boat liked it. Then the wind came more onto the beam we got some lee helm, so we put a reefed main up and she liked that too. Nice and balanced. I can pull my main up by sheeting on the jib, getting on a close reach and winding the main up, no worries, no engines and definitely never ever ever head to wind to raise it.

If you want to learn how to listen to a boat, get a boat like a 420 or such and sail without the rudder, learn how to balance the boat with sails and use the rudder as a fine control. If you fight it, you are doing it wrong. Your boat will always tell you what it wants if you listen to it and feel the helm - get it light and centred and good things will happen.

see your points but i still like wing on wing even in nasty stuff. dont like single point on mast pulling the boat forward, if possible. AP = autopilot. if your works fine - great.

Remember using jib only early in my career in bad conditions and AP was moving too much. Added main and all fine and never looked back.

[Capdave360]

Originally Posted by nfbr

Lets assume you want to be on a broad reach at night in higher windspeeds. (20-30knts true)

Main is down.

Don't want to run large Asymmetric at night / higher windspeeds / varying winds

Genoa unfurled is too much. Furled puts it too far forward of the cars to get a good sheeting angle

Self tacking staysail (Solent) has limited track length. Goes as wide as the salon, but not to edge of hulls.

Seems to me the best option is either headsail with a barber hauler to get the angle right.
Hence this post.

Barber hauler on the part furled genoa might work, but that's a lot of load on a stanchion base.
I'm considering installing some extra padeyes or a new track maybe quite a way forward.

Barber hauler on the staysail might work, but the self tacking sheet arrangement with the block on the sail makes things "interesting" - it's a big lump of metal floating around.

What do you do for a Broad Reach in the tradewinds at night? Most google hits are for mono's with whisker poles.

We have a padeye on deck specifically to bring the genoa sheet lead forward for broad reaching and for reefing on higher points of sail - we use it regularly with a Colligo Soft Snatch Block to make it easy. An installed padeye isn't the only solution - the line forward might work or use any other strong point. Don't use a stanchion base, not designed for that load. If you really don't have anything, then take the time to set it up properly with a proper install of a strong point - managing deck core and backing plates as needed.

We generally do fly the main broad reaching - the key to keeping it off the rig is to vang the boom down. If you don't have a vang, then you need a line from an appropriate place on the boom to an appropriate place on deck or rail that pulls the boom down, triangulating with the main sheet. This will require a multi-part purchase and/or a lead to a winch. All this hardware needs to be very strong, it basically sees the same loads as the mainsheet.

We fly a 1,040 sq. ft. main and an 845 sq. ft. genoa, so I expect your loads aren't too much higher.

[Capdave360]

Originally Posted by nfbr

Lets assume you want to be on a broad reach at night in higher windspeeds. (20-30knts true)

Main is down.

Don't want to run large Asymmetric at night / higher windspeeds / varying winds

Genoa unfurled is too much.

As I recall - you bought that 61' Crowther that was for sale in SMX for quite some time??

Broad reaching that boat should behave a lot like ours - should reach at least half of TWS or often a bit more. So your AWS is really not that high......

There is a school of thought that says don't carry more sail downwind than you would upwind in the given TWS, and that has some merit. We push that a little.

Upwind we start furling the Genoa at 12-15 TWS and switch to the staysail at 15-18 TWS. We definitely move that up a notch downwind - carry full genoa to at least 20 TWS, often higher.

We put the first reef in the main at 20 TWS upwind - we tend to do that at 25 TWS downwind.

At 25 TWS we are doing low to mid-teens broad reaching. During one passage we had about 10 hours broad reaching in 30-35 TWS with frequent higher gusts - we had the main and genoa both double reefed and averaged about 18 knots boatspeed through the period, hitting 23 as top speed. Now with more experience with the boat I'd probably have the full staysail in those conditions instead of the reefed genoa.

What I'm trying to say is you have a boat that can go fast, but you need to feed it the horsepower. Mind the downside of TWS if something goes wrong, but watch your AWS to get the right canvas on her.

There are some really experienced sailors on these boards, but most of them have the bulk of their experience sailing monos that max out at 8-12 knots, or less. Sailing 60 foot-ish high performance cats that can go into the 20's is a very very different world. The Apparent Wind effects are way more exaggerated at these higher boat speeds.