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rabbi · 12-07-2021, 04:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sand crab

Colin said he and Jamie worked 5 weeks on repairs and they are still not done with the final reinstallation. Lets just say you could get yard workers at $50 per hour which is doubtful so that would be $2000 a week X 5 weeks X 2 guys which comes to $20,000. Realistically yard labor rates are about double that plus haulout and yard fees and materials. Plus I think they put in more than 40 hours a week and they had some additional help from the young lady. This repair could easily exceed $50,000 for those that tried to have a yard do it.

Maybe they overdid it, maybe their boat was more thrashed than others but the entire process will not be any fun at all to you or your wallet.

Colin is a good guy, but I bet they spend half the time scratching their head, wondering what they are doing, how to proceed, where to source materials, talking to Lagoon or other more experienced repair workers, planning how to finish the trim, etc
I know I would !
Some team sent in by Lagoon will do it in a fraction of the time - maybe not on the first boat but on the second or third boat.

Someone recently reported about his Lagoon 400 bulkhead replacement / repair by Lagoon: A team of 2 workers drove from La Rochelle in a van, had everything required with them and were gone after a week.

But I agree, the 450 could suffer badly.

EngineerRetired · 12-07-2021, 04:18

Clearly the losers in all this will be current 450 owners and most will try hard to play it off as a non-issue. Believe me when I say I have crossed the boat off as a possible purchase.

My take, it won't be long before the already nervous insurance industry walks away from underwriting policies unless Lagoon steps up and repairs them.

rabbi · 12-07-2021, 04:29

Agreed. Their best bet is to sell now before the news has spread everyhwere.
Or do the repair , possibly with help by Lagoon, and just keep the boat "forever".

aqfishing · 12-07-2021, 04:46

Has anyone heard of any similar issues with LATER models of Leopard, say post 2012, say the 44, 45 and newer 40.

Most interested in the 40. We have a 2020 3 cabin 40.

crayiii · 12-07-2021, 05:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by aqfishing

Has anyone heard of any similar issues with LATER models of Leopard, say post 2012, say the 44, 45 and newer 40.

Most interested in the 40. We have a 2020 3 cabin 40.

I've been told but I don't have any expertise, that the models with the mast moved aft have the main support under the compression post and that it's metal and part of the bridge deck structure. The other bulkhead is the engine bulkhead nearer the shrouds.

I was told that all the doorways are glued to the hull and mainly provide structural support for furniture and cabinetry.

I was also told by a shipyard, that I shouldn't have them fiberglass the "bulkheads" that are glued because it could lead to the panels cracking or hull damage since they need to flex.

This was in a 42 that I wanted to make stronger similar to what Cat Impi did on their 440. We've sailed full-time on this boat and have 18,000 NM on her so far and we haven't experienced any structural issues and yes, I climb around everywhere and look with a boroscope as well.

smj · 12-07-2021, 05:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by crayiii

I've been told but I don't have any expertise, that the models with the mast moved aft have the main support under the compression post and that it's metal and part of the bridge deck structure. The other bulkhead is the engine bulkhead nearer the shrouds.

I was told that all the doorways are glued to the hull and mainly provide structural support for furniture and cabinetry.

I was also told by a shipyard, that I shouldn't have them fiberglass the "bulkheads" that are glued because it could lead to the panels cracking or hull damage since they need to flex.

This was in a 42 that I wanted to make stronger similar to what Cat Impi did on their 440. We've sailed full-time on this boat and have 18,000 NM on her so far and we haven't experienced any structural issues and yes, I climb around everywhere and look with a boroscope as well.

So for the bulkhead or hull to flex the glue joint needs to break? I’ve never understood that theory. Wouldn’t it be better to install a “floating bulkhead” if it needs to flex?

Sand crab · 12-07-2021, 05:18

The biggest complaint with the newer Leopards is the front windows popping out. The 44s were the main design affected I think. My guess is there's too much flexing around the steel I-beam assembly around the front cockpit. Perhaps a glassed in composite bulkhead might be stiffer.
There's a vid of an owner checking his Leopard after seeing the Parley debacle and everything looked OK.

crayiii · 12-07-2021, 05:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by smj

So for the bulkhead or hull to flex the glue joint needs to break? I’ve never understood that theory. Wouldn’t it be better to install a “floating bulkhead” if it needs to flex?

I guess the idea is that the plexus has more flex then if the joints where glassed and easier to fix than broken bulkheads.

What I've found while crawling around our 42 is that some areas are glassed and some areas have the plexus. For example, the bulkhead under the front windows is completely glassed across the bridge deck (top and bottom) but where the bulkhead meets the lower areas of the hulls, it is glued. One positive is that access is simple if I ever need to replace the glue.

**GordMay** · 12-07-2021, 05:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by smj

So for the bulkhead or hull to flex the glue joint needs to break? I’ve never understood that theory. Wouldn’t it be better to install a “floating bulkhead” if it needs to flex?

Indeed.
Some [few] bulkheads are merely partitions, not structural supports.
In structural bulkheads, to avoid hard spots, it is best if any perpendicular structure bonded to a hull [bulkhead] does not actually meet it.
Instead, there should be a small gap, filled with a softer material like foam, balsa wood, or putty. The joint should also be nicely radiused with a wide fillet. This serves both to reduce stress in the area, and to strengthen the bond generally, as the transition from one bonded surface to the other is more gradual. The wider the radiused angle, the stronger the bond will be, and the less stress it will experience.

See also ➥ https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ds-110956.html

rabbi · 12-07-2021, 05:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by crayiii

I guess the idea is that the plexus has more flex then if the joints where glassed and easier to fix than broken bulkheads.

What I've found while crawling around our 42 is that some areas are glassed and some areas have the plexus. For example, the bulkhead under the front windows is completely glassed across the bridge deck (top and bottom) but where the bulkhead meets the lower areas of the hulls, it is glued. One positive is that access is simple if I ever need to replace the glue.

In several different 380 I have seen the exact same bulkheads glued in place, glassed in place, or glued + glassed.

This may depend on model year, or which team did the bulkheads or how big the gap between hull & bulkhead was.
Or maybe just the phase of the moon, who knows.

Not exactly a way to build confidence.

smj · 12-07-2021, 05:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by rabbi

In several different 380 I have seen the exact same bulkheads glued in place, glassed in place, or glued + glassed.

This may depend on model year, or which team did the bulkheads or how big the gap between hull & bulkhead was.

Or maybe just the phase of the moon, who knows.

Not exactly a way to build confidence.

I was reading today that some of the 380’s had the same bulkhead problem as the 450’s.

crayiii · 12-07-2021, 05:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sand crab

The biggest complaint with the newer Leopards is the front windows popping out. The 44s were the main design affected I think. My guess is there's too much flexing around the steel I-beam assembly around the front cockpit. Perhaps a glassed in composite bulkhead might be stiffer.
There's a vid of an owner checking his Leopard after seeing the Parley debacle and everything looked OK.

Here's photos of a 2017 Leopard with bulkhead issues and voids in the gelcoat.

Unfortunately, all manufacturers have their issues. It really comes down to how they respond. Leopard fixed this person's boat for free.

rabbi · 12-07-2021, 05:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by smj

I was reading today that some of the 380’s had the same bulkhead problem as the 450’s.

Forum or facebook? Any links?

aqfishing · 12-07-2021, 05:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by crayiii

I've been told but I don't have any expertise, that the models with the mast moved aft have the main support under the compression post and that it's metal and part of the bridge deck structure. The other bulkhead is the engine bulkhead nearer the shrouds.

I was told that all the doorways are glued to the hull and mainly provide structural support for furniture and cabinetry.

I was also told by a shipyard, that I shouldn't have them fiberglass the "bulkheads" that are glued because it could lead to the panels cracking or hull damage since they need to flex.

This was in a 42 that I wanted to make stronger similar to what Cat Impi did on their 440. We've sailed full-time on this boat and have 18,000 NM on her so far and we haven't experienced any structural issues and yes, I climb around everywhere and look with a boroscope as well.

Sorry, Maybe I was not clear. Was enquiring about later model Leopards from Robertson and Caine. In particular the Leopard 40 (2015 and newer).