Broken Lagoon

[crayiii]

Originally Posted by nextis12

Crayiii what year is the 42?

She's a 2017

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by smj

Maybe he didn’t have issues with his 380, but it sure is a bold statement that seems to involve all models?

It's just that, a bolt statement made by someone who has experience with one single lagoon 380, which obviously did not have any significant issues. Otherwise he'd not conclude to buy it again.

Everything else is just hearsay on his part and speculation from our side.

How could a warping bulkhead problem in the 380 remain a secret? Almost 1000 units are on the water with the bulkheads directly visible from the cabin (not hidden under trim)

[Sand crab]

Rabbi, do you know the model years of those 380s bulkhead pics? I'm trying to figure out if they started out glassing and then switched to just gluing or the other way around.

[more]

Originally Posted by Muaddib1116

I have serious doubts that anyone is sailing away on a new Lagoon 46 for $600k.

from 2017 ordered
LAGOON 450 F, 4 cbs, 4 heads 2 x 57hp Yanmar 386.347 € EQUIPMENT
PACK * Essential pack TRANSPORT LAUNCHING, RIGGING
& ANTIFOULING LA-ROCHELLE ,charter pack 407.844

[bdgWesternMass]

Originally Posted by crayiii

Don't charter companies rely on either people buying the boat and placing it in charter or buying the boat from them at the end of it's use as a charter boat? If nobody is buying a lagoon new or used, the charter companies may move away from the brand.

People (Parlay included) are buying hurricane wrecked Lagoons.
If that doesn't give one pause in their purchasing decisions. I can hardly see shoddy workmanship being a problem...

(I don't no anything. The evidence of the shoddy workmanship to me. Makes worrying about how it was designed is irrelevant. The design wasn't tested because the assembly was inadequate.)

If people were buying hurricane wrecked boats, what is the difference in quality to a factory wrecked boat?

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by Sand crab

Rabbi, do you know the model years of those 380s bulkhead pics? I'm trying to figure out if they started out glassing and then switched to just gluing or the other way around.

Not at my home computer right now.

I remember both were S2, the glued one was 2008 and the glassed one was younger than 2008.
But the glued one had other bulkheads glassed in place at least from one side of the panel - and I am pretty sure that the earliest S2 had glass, too.

Which brings me to the point. Build quality seems to depend a lot on individual teams / mood / moon phase. Even in a large standardized factory setting like Lagoon (which is still tiny compared to car manufacturers).

[Pandor]

Originally Posted by bdgWesternMass

If people were buying hurricane wrecked boats, what is the difference in quality to a factory wrecked boat?

Nobody buys a hurricane wrecked boat except at a huge discount of greater than 50% non-wrecked value.

This is the fear of current 450 owners - immediate depreciation of their assets.

[fillintheblank]

I will throw this out as for glued vs tabbed. Its not really a case of the material costing much, its a labor and a design thing. Lagoon builds the interior of the boat and "drops" it in to the hull, this makes it hard to get in to some areas to tab it in. Sure they can tab the easy to access areas with out much time and labor, but imagine if they had to wiggle a guy in to small places to tab it in. The easy to access tabbing might take an hour or two, the hard parts can take 10-20 hours, figure a guy squeezing in and another handing him wet out cloth.

The boat was designed to have the interior glued in, its fast and easy. I dont blame them for doing it, it makes sense. But I would think they would make larger bonding surfaces than the edge of a 3/4 thick ply.

[crayiii]

Originally Posted by fillintheblank

I will throw this out as for glued vs tabbed. Its not really a case of the material costing much, its a labor and a design thing. Lagoon builds the interior of the boat and "drops" it in to the hull, this makes it hard to get in to some areas to tab it in. Sure they can tab the easy to access areas with out much time and labor, but imagine if they had to wiggle a guy in to small places to tab it in. The easy to access tabbing might take an hour or two, the hard parts can take 10-20 hours, figure a guy squeezing in and another handing him wet out cloth.

The boat was designed to have the interior glued in, its fast and easy. I dont blame them for doing it, it makes sense. But I would think they would make larger bonding surfaces than the edge of a 3/4 thick ply.

I don't think the glued bulkhead is the cause of the bulkhead failures.

It seems that, whether people like it or not, gluing the bulkheads to the hull works. It is also very common in the industry.

Under designed bulkheads are the real problem.

[Sandy Frank]

Originally Posted by fillintheblank

I will throw this out as for glued vs tabbed. Its not really a case of the material costing much, its a labor and a design thing. Lagoon builds the interior of the boat and "drops" it in to the hull, this makes it hard to get in to some areas to tab it in. Sure they can tab the easy to access areas with out much time and labor, but imagine if they had to wiggle a guy in to small places to tab it in. The easy to access tabbing might take an hour or two, the hard parts can take 10-20 hours, figure a guy squeezing in and another handing him wet out cloth.

The boat was designed to have the interior glued in, its fast and easy. I dont blame them for doing it, it makes sense. But I would think they would make larger bonding surfaces than the edge of a 3/4 thick ply.

Beneteau glues the grid stringers in place to the hull rather than tabbing. I would call that easy access. you are definitely right that the glue is a group corporate policy to save on labor, but I do not believe the driving force is hard to reach places.

[fillintheblank]

Originally Posted by crayiii

I don't think the glued bulkhead is the cause of the bulkhead failures.

It seems that, whether people like it or not, gluing the bulkheads to the hull works. It is also very common in the industry.

Under designed bulkheads are the real problem.

I agree the main bulk is way under designed. I am talking about the failure stuff on places like the engine room bulkhead and behind the furniture in the forward state rooms where its glued. Those places are hard to get to.

[fillintheblank]

If you want to see over built bulk head, and its not a real bulk head. Look up the tom cat 9.7, the mast is supported by a beam that goes across the hull, and has 3 supports.

I did a delivery on one years ago, the boat has other issues, but that part was built strong. By other other issues I mean center board, dual outboard powered. Not really issues but just not what every one may want

[aqfishing]

Originally Posted by more

from 2017 ordered
LAGOON 450 F, 4 cbs, 4 heads 2 x 57hp Yanmar 386.347 € EQUIPMENT
PACK * Essential pack TRANSPORT LAUNCHING, RIGGING
& ANTIFOULING LA-ROCHELLE ,charter pack 407.844

I got a quote for a 3 cabin 450 S on 8 June 2021.

Included all of my wish list.

Total ex factory was €612 000 or roughly $734 000.

It would be ready to cruise.

Broker suggested adding on the comfort pack. Add € 26000.

My 2 cents.

[crayiii]

Originally Posted by fillintheblank

I agree the main bulk is way under designed. I am talking about the failure stuff on places like the engine room bulkhead and behind the furniture in the forward state rooms where its glued. Those places are hard to get to.

I'm pretty sure the engine room bulkheads are glassed. Also, if I remember correctly, the other bulkheads split (the wood) but the hull connections did not all fail.

I've yet to see another 450 that wasn't an insurance write-off have the extent of damage as the one in the YouTube videos.

It's clear there is an issue with the mast bulkhead in these boats but it doesn't seem like the required repairs for most will be anywhere near as extensive as what we're seeing.

Don't take this as me defending the construction quality of the boats. I'm just trying to better understand what's going on.

[CatNewBee]

Agree, it is not a separation issue of the bulkhead from the hull. The thin plywood rim around the door simply is overwhelmed by the pressure of the twisting structure and brakes at the weakest points. This needs re-enforcements and bonding.

It is not only Lagoons fault, customers demand a standing height and big square comfortable doors, so the bulkhead rims get smaller and smaller with each remake.

The other failures are a result of the broken main bulkhead as they take over the forces from the broken one, they then may separate from the hull (glue fail) because the material does not give in that easily. It is always the weakest link, that brakes.

Regarding deck to hull bonding - this is simply a design issue, that the applied glue does not touch the other surface, maybe an production issue of not propery alligned hull and deck. before the bonding both structures are quite flexible given their shape and size. The deck makes out of them a sturdy box.