Buying Catamaran from Sunsail (TUI Marine)

[fly2kite]

Originally Posted by Roshni

Cruising Caribbean after Med and Atlantic trip. Recomend buying boat fitted out for cruising, watermaker, solar, gennaker etc, as cost of this is greater then discount of ex charter company.

Good call, I'm an engineer and diy'er and I'm looking forward outfitting it myself. I have a lot of time in the next couple of years.

[Dr. Sea]

Originally Posted by Alistair242

Phase outs are focused more on cosmetics as opposed to rebuilding integral systems on the boat that most likely need serious attention at that point.

I owned a Beneteau 50 in the Sunsail fleet in BVI. I kept it for a couple of years after it came out of the charter fleet and was very pleased with the work Sunsail did to put it in good condition for me. They repaired or replaced everything listed on the survey from an independent surveyor whom I hired, except for a couple of minor cosmetic issues. They even replaced the floorboards which was not an item listed on the survey. I can’t speak for all boats at all bases. Quality of maintenance and extent of phase-out work May vary from base to base, but I was pleased and impressed with the work they did on my boat.

[alansmith]

Dr Sea, thanks for the shout out about a positive review of charter boats.

I chartered out of Greece on a big arse Cat from Sunsail out of Volos, Greece. One of the nicest boats I ever had the pleasure of being on. Immaculate. Everything was perfect. Sailed the Sporades Islands for a couple of weeks. Beyond fabulous. Visited the Acropolis in Athens. Spent two days in the Museum at the base of the Acropolis and was enthralled with the artifacts and history of ancient Greece. I say...go to Greece and buy a boat....smile

BTW...maybe people will be divesting themselves of their pleasure boats if the Covid does a number on the world. Will see how severe the second wave might be. BTW the herd immunity is 60%, not 80%, before it self attenuates the spread of infection. So, maybe it would be in your best financial interests to wait and see how this plays out before committing coin.

Devaluation of boats is a pretty iffy thing. But large charter companies have contracts with many owners who buy their boats and then put into charter. They do so with historical data that the charter companies provide potential clients of past usage of "that type of boat" in their locale. The owners sign the docs with the expectations of a boat being maintained, x amount of personal usage for the owner, and x amount of weeks of chartering for their type of boat. So, the charter companies in the Caribbean have pretty much lost their primo season already. What is the trickle of revenue they did get...before Covid went full Monty...going to do on the balance sheets that the CPA are looking at nowadays? There are some hurting people out there wringing their hands in despair. This Covid has got the whole freaking planet sideways.

So, yes, there are real possibilities ahead of bankruptcy and people divesting themselves of their toys. Think it through very carefully. I'm not saying to not do it....i'm saying to 'hide and watch' while this lockdown of the entire planet plays out. Best of luck....great boats and great company...and great locations...

[Barra]

As someone mentioned KKR now own Sunsail who fund acquisitions primarily using junk bonds. They are on negative outlook to move even lower on the ratings ie to default....

Even putting a deposit down for a charter with them would be risky let alone a deposit to buy a boat.

Good chance KKR will cut the ballast like sunsail/moorings loose to keep other parts of their empire afloat IMHO.

[Riggerman]

First of all deposit are always, always held in escrow, not the sellers account. Second I would never buy from a rental anything company. I seasonally side line work for one of the largest RV rental company as a technician. Why they sell their units is because the maintenance would eat up their profit, second most of them do not have top of the line equipment, third yes they look good, but they have been patch aesthetically not structurally. And usually if you buy from a near new boat from a private person, you most likely will be either the same or less depending if it is an emergency sale I.E. divorce, health etc... and they most likely will have more bells and whistles.

[nmccubbin]

My only experience with Sunsail cats was a charter of one they have built specially.
Build quality was very poor
I would never own one

[Riggerman]

Most rental anything charter boats, RV etc, are built on the cheap. Our RV's have manufacturer problem from the get go, We know what they are, small slide out motors, small battery banks, very thin shell. Any thing mechanical except the engine is sub standard ( engine are regular engines ) it is about 3 to 5 year maximum return on their investments depending if it is a boat or RV, after that the maintenance cost is terrible because it was built on the cheap.

[ELC]

Honestly I've worked on many ex charter boats. Very high wear and tear and they are always a gamble, always.

If surveyed did a qualified rigger look at the rig? Was there a full mechanical survey? Just how good was surveyor? The main surveyor is like a family doctor and unless you pay extra for those specialists things might get missed!

You can usually bet a former charter boat is due for a full rerig, especially multihulls. Engines and transmission close to rebuild hours, etc.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Riggerman

First of all deposit are always, always held in escrow, not the sellers account. Second I would never buy from a rental anything company. I seasonally side line work for one of the largest RV rental company as a technician. Why they sell their units is because the maintenance would eat up their profit, second most of them do not have top of the line equipment, third yes they look good, but they have been patch aesthetically not structurally. And usually if you buy from a near new boat from a private person, you most likely will be either the same or less depending if it is an emergency sale I.E. divorce, health etc... and they most likely will have more bells and whistles.

It would be nice if there was some kind of proof or a way of knowing if your deposit was being held in an escrow account.
We made an offer on a cat 17 years ago and sent a 10% deposit check with the offer. Our offer wasn’t accepted and the broker ended up putting our deposit in his account. It took us 3 months to get our deposit back and that was right before they went bankrupt.
If I were to do it again I would use a buyers broker close to where I live. Nothing like a little face to face to get a problem solved.

[Riggerman]

Yes I have been through the same scenario. I bought many boats over 40 years. Took Me a while to learn. Always got My deposit back, but some took 6 months plus. Last boat I bought. in Curacao ( I am from Vancouver Canada), talk to the person for 6 months, trying to figure out if he was full of it, or honest, then agreed on a price if the boat was as described, ( happens it was), went down on a vacation, exchanged money via bank wire minus 10 grand for de-certification of the boat get the paper work done on site at the time with legal counsel. never has an issue. That is how it is done in My opinion. Face to face, no money down, but money kept back for completion of transaction, and no brokers involved. If I was in the market for an other boat. I would do it the same way. If the seller is honest, he has nothing to worry about.

[captken]

Last year I purchased a charter vessel sitting in Hong Kong. Seller insisted I use their broker's escrow account with some chinese bank. Red flag!! After I told him that was a deal-breaker he agreed to my Honolulu based broker's escrow account who I trust and have utilized on a number of transactions over the years. 1st international purchase for me and so glad I had an American broker representing me in the Hong Kong registration release/US documentation submission and funds transfer.

[Boat Guy]

Originally Posted by captken

Last year I purchased a charter vessel sitting in Hong Kong. Seller insisted I use their broker's escrow account with some chinese bank. Red flag!! After I told him that was a deal-breaker he agreed to my Honolulu based broker's escrow account who I trust and have utilized on a number of transactions over the years. 1st international purchase for me and so glad I had an American broker representing me in the Hong Kong registration release/US documentation submission and funds transfer.

Smart.... What did you get?

[FerrariSailing]

Please go to you tube and look at Parlay Revival.

[Gerrit Coetzee]

Originally Posted by fly2kite

We are considering buying a catamaran from Sunsail Charters in the Meds. It seems the process is different that we have heard from our US brokers.

They want a 10% down payment wired directly into their company account. An independent/3rd party escrow is according to the sellers brokers "not accepted".

This seems very fishy to me since Sunsail is basically an LLC and doesn't provide any money safety in the sense of a FDIC or government backed entity.

Does anybody has any advice on how to deal with that? Is that common practice?

Thanks.

On Moorings/sunsail going belly-up now, not impossible but not likely in my opinion.

Moorings had a $1,2bn insurance injection in 2018. It has 200 yachts on order from Leopard/Robertson&Cain in South Africa. They pay all their charter owners this season irrespective of no chartering...

Does not sound to me bankruptcy is looming - but if I am wrong, it might be the first time. This I guarantee: Courts will be very reluctant to declare a company bankrupt now, even if someone would file so.

Not to throw caution over board:

No reason to pay a deposit unless you want to secure the boat for you. Go, investigate and decide. If so, then pay for the boat in full.

If it is sold before then, there are other boats out there.

Boats may become cheaper, but less boats were built this season. So decide if you want to put your dream on hold.

Life is about taking (calculated) risks. Just manage the risks.

The glass may be half empy or half full , or it is just due for a refil.

[KC375]

Originally Posted by Gerrit Coetzee

On Moorings/sunsail going belly-up now, not impossible but not likely in my opinion.

Moorings had a $1,2bn insurance injection in 2018. It has 200 yachts on order from Leopard/Robertson&Cain in South Africa. They pay all their charter owners this season irrespective of no chartering...

Does not sound to me bankruptcy is looming - but if I am wrong, it might be the first time. This I guarantee: Courts will be very reluctant to declare a company bankrupt now, even if someone would file so.

Not to throw caution over board:

No reason to pay a deposit unless you want to secure the boat for you. Go, investigate and decide. If so, then pay for the boat in full.

If it is sold before then, there are other boats out there.

Boats may become cheaper, but less boats were built this season. So decide if you want to put your dream on hold.

Life is about taking (calculated) risks. Just manage the risks.

The glass may be half empy or half full , or it is just due for a refil.

Neither an insurance payment from two years ago nor an existing large order of boats is evidence of Moorings' ability to survive a massive loss of revenue.
If the insurance payment was converting capital equipment (damaged boats) into cash then that would be encouraging. Two reasons to not expect that is true:
1. Much (or all) of that payment probably went to paying of debt secured against that capital equipment. So yes that would reduce the carrying costs but
2. The order for 200 boats means cash had to go out the door for deposits, progress, payments, final payment...etc. and there will be debt in some form secured against those boats...and you can count on the boat builder (or their receiver) going after moorings to honour any purchase contracts.