Can you have Comfort, Value and Performance in a Catamaran?

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by thinwater

...there is no way in hell they would hang a hull out of the water like that...

Agreed Note the smilies in the previous post of mine that you quoted - it was very clearly in jest.

Because everyone wants to go fast, but doesn't always fully understand what's required to do so.

I too understand from personal experience what is involved with pushing boats hard, be they mono, multi, or power yachts, and I was often exhausted at the end of a 'fast' day - not physically, but mentally. The demands can be quite high.

Not to hijack this thread further but a good article appeared in my news feed today, for those who might be interested (25kn upwind in 4m seas):

Battle of the giants: The inside story of the Brest Atlantiques Race https://www.yachtingworld.com/featur...es-race-125122

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

Agreed Note the smilies in the previous post of mine that you quoted - it was very clearly in jest....

Yes, obviously!

There is a reason charter boats are under-canvased. There is no way I would have rented my souped-up PDQ to a credit card captain in a breezy location. The genoa would be replaced by a dinky self-tacker and I'd shorten the stick 4 feet, at least! A chute is out of the question.


I could brag that my F-24 will go 17 knots. It will. But if I were sailing far offshore, or even when cruising by myself, the limit is more like 8 knots, and that is off the wind. That's still a lot faster than a cruising 24' mono, but it is the limit of safety when you are less than fully focused.

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

Because everyone wants to go fast, but doesn't always fully understand what's required to do so.

My cruiser version of 'to go fast' means being able to sail >5 knots with as little wind as possible. Maybe pushing it light instead of hard

[jmh2002]

Even for cruising 5kn is pretty slow these days, when what is being discussed is a catamaran of around 50ft...

An option which hasn't really been mentioned much (except maybe for the Outremer 55 Light that was posted earlier) is to go bigger, well longer anyway, but without adding commensurate volume.

You will pay a penalty in some other ways, eg: more expensive marina fees, and just a bigger boat to handle in general.

But it is an easier way to increase the passagemaking speeds, without having to push the boat too hard. All things being equal the bigger boat will achieve the numbers just that much easier.

[Palarran]

I'd absolutely love to see a video of any of these production or even semi-production cruising cats actually flying a hull, like sustained, vs a wave passes by and one hull, for one moment, is above the trough. Has anyone seen one? I'm not talking about Phaedo or a racing cat, just your standard performance cat.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by Palarran

I'd absolutely love to see a video of any of these production or even semi-production cruising cats actually flying a hull...

This still might be more on the fast side a cruising cat but she definitely up, in relatively flat water.

http://www.hhcatamarans.com/hh66

HH Catamaran HH66-03 flying a hull at 20+ knots on day 5 of sea trials.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YPExhb_cio

And here's a couple of photos:





I think that 66-02 has no fairing, no paint, and is just clear coat over carbon.

http://swizzlesportsmedia.com/whats-...ing-catamaran/

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

This still might be more on the fast side a cruising cat but she definitely up, in relatively flat water.


SNIP

And you figured that out all by yourself. HH is a Gunboat knockoff from when Gunboat went bellyup. No way that can be compared to a production cat.

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

Even for cruising 5kn is pretty slow these days, when what is being discussed is a catamaran of around 50ft...

Yes, true. It's the monohull sailor in me trying not to dream too big.

Look, here's what they are saying in Wikipedia:

Tarjan adds that cruising catamarans boats can maintain a comfortable 300 nautical miles (350 mi; 560 km) per day passage, with the racing versions recording well over 400 nautical miles (460 mi; 740 km) per day. In addition, they do not heel more than 10-12 degrees, even at full speed on a reach.[45]

So, are you all cruising catamaranists really making "comfortable" 300 nm per day? Average 12.5 knots?

What about the heeling part? What kind of heeling are you used to in real life? On most cruising cat videos there doesn't seem to be very much non-wave induced heeling at all. Maybe a few degrees?

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by tomfl

And you figured that out all by yourself. HH is a Gunboat knockoff from when Gunboat went bellyup. No way that can be compared to a production cat.

Huh? Palarran asked to see a "production or even semi-production cruising cat" (not Phaedo and not a race boat).

If you have a better video, please post it, instead of posting snark...

[Sand crab]

This one doesn't tick all your boxes but it looks new and you just gotta see the interior. The good part it's way under $750K. They don't make em like they used to.
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/200...monis-3549475/

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

Yes, true. It's the monohull sailor in me trying not to dream too big.

Yes but remember that waterline length also plays a part in the equation and a modern 50ft monohull can easily average much more than 5kn too.

Originally Posted by mglonnro

So, are you all cruising catamaranists really making "comfortable" 300 nm per day? Average 12.5 knots?

For most cruisers I don't believe so, if we are talking about ocean crossings, unless you have really, really ideal conditions.

As I posted earlier, in general most people seem to throttle back at around 10kn, for all round comfort (boat, crew, etc). Boat speeds of 8-10kn seem to be more common, with bursts into the low teens.

[Palarran]

Originally Posted by tomfl

And you figured that out all by yourself. HH is a Gunboat knockoff from when Gunboat went bellyup. No way that can be compared to a production cat.

And it's only three million seven hundred and eighty thousand dollars. They are killer looking boats though. There were 3 HH's in Provo when I was there three years ago. Nice lineup.

https://www.marinemax.com/yachts/yac...2017/-/6171859

[mglonnro]

A new Excess 15 is pretty close, isn't it?
https://excess-catamarans.com/our-catamarans/excess-15

The range will be competitively priced for a luxury brand, at around €305,000 to €315,000 for the 12m boat and €580,000 to €598,000 for the 15m boat.

[Astroman]

Lots of great insight. I hope this is valuable to someone in a similar situation. To recap, this is for a family of 6, bluewater, >50' and ~750k. (This is consensus, not

My Summary:

• Production boats from big three are good boats. They are made well, but on the slower side. There is value because of the quantity they make for charter. fit and finish is not the best, but overall a solid boat and roomy.
• Performance catamarans for a family of 6 and a budget are probably not going to work. Even if I can get an older outremer or catana, I likely wont' get the space I need. For tradeoff between performance and comfort we should stay on the comfort side and sacrifice performance. (10% cruising, 90% at anchor!)
• Some good alternatives to the big 3 that may have a marginal advantage on performance would Be Seawind 1600, Knysna, St Francis, Privilege, Xquisite, Balance. The problem with these boats is many are recent models, or only build a few and therefore not many used options. My Budget is 750k (all except the Knysna are over 1 million new and typically a few years out. )
• Of the big three (FP, Leopard and Lagoon) and >50', the FP Saba 50 looks the best. Lower boom, lighter weight, solid construction.
• Don't put too much emphasis on the boat itself. The Captain, sail plan and other options have a significant impact on performance.
• The perfect boat for me won't be built until The Japanese get into boat building. Then i'll get value, quality, performance and comfort in one.

Our plan. Look for an used Saba 50 or Privilege. If I can find any of the non production boats on market, i'll consider them.

I can imagine this question has been posited many times on this forum (and not the last!) and I thank you all for entertaining it again.

[smj]

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/scz/boa...077532475.html
And for close to half your budget. May not have enough room for you but well built and good performance.