Can you have Comfort, Value and Performance in a Catamaran?

[Astroman]

Originally Posted by smj

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/scz/boa...077532475.html
And for close to half your budget. May not have enough room for you but well built and good performance.

I'm a novice. I'm not sure I could handle an outremer

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Astroman

I'm a novice. I'm not sure I could handle an outremer

Of course you could handle an Outremer. You simply leave a reef in the main most of the time. As your experience develops you'll find having the ability to sail in lighter winds a major plus.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

Yes, true. It's the monohull sailor in me trying not to dream too big.

Look, here's what they are saying in Wikipedia:


So, are you all cruising catamaranists really making "comfortable" 300 nm per day? Average 12.5 knots?

What about the heeling part? What kind of heeling are you used to in real life? On most cruising cat videos there doesn't seem to be very much non-wave induced heeling at all. Maybe a few degrees?

Tarjan also says rigs will fail before lifting a hull and you should ease the traveller rather than the mainsheet when overpowered. He's more salesman than sailor, IMO.

We have sailed 120nm in 10 hours on passage though, and sisterships have done 240-250 mile days during circumnavigations.

Heeling really is minimal. The stories about cups of coffee really are true. They virtually never spill.

[Mr B]

Hahahahaha, Ive changed my mind about coffee cups Staying where I put it,
And that Cats stay level and flat most of the time,

My shake down cruise three weeks ago, Wind well in excess of 30 knots,
I turned my spreader lights on to look at the ocean, Turned them off again immediately. I didnt like what I saw,
It was one very nasty and wild looking ocean, Bass Straight,
Worst storm Ive ever been in,

My Little Cat was at 45 degrees side to side constantly, Rocking sideways,
Every thing was on the floor,
It was that bad I thought the mast would snap off, It was getting battered violently,
Bare poles as the Genoa would have been shredded if I left it up,
The boat was spinning around 90 degrees and quite frequently 180 degrees,
Nothing I could do about it, I was in it, Lock to lock on the steering to keep it straight,
Just hope my boat was up to the task to get me home, At 6 knots on the GPS,
But it did prove to me how seaworthy my boat is,

[mcarthur]

Regarding performance, if you're really cruising then have a look at some of the youtubers for real life figures. For example the Wynns have a good size cat, cruise it competently and are still out there right-side up . I don't remember seeing their figures for passage making summarized anywhere, but from my memory they tend to average about 6-8kn during the day, less at night to be conservative on sail plan, and obviously more than 8 sometimes and less than 6 sometimes.

I can't remember a cruising couple who are on YT who try and average your 10kn, or even 8-10kn (ie. 9kn), over a broad range of cruising modes. Now move to racing, or even ARC, and things are different. Hell, buy Domino and cruise at 18-20kn comfortably without sails .

Otherwise, I'd suggest moving your speed requirement down into the 6-8kn average where a) it will be anyway, and b) where almost any modern cat will be absolutely fine matching. Then concentrate on other factors - Ruby Rose's team did a great look at 10+ cruising cats to explain what they believe is important for a cruiser. You don't have to agree, but cost, comfort and performance are very broad categories and there's even more than those three to think about (manufacturer quality, your personality and your significant other's, etc. etc.).

[tp12]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

Huh? Palarran asked to see a "production or even semi-production cruising cat" (not Phaedo and not a race boat).

If you have a better video, please post it, instead of posting snark...

Snark aside, Phaedo is a gunboat and the HH is pretty much a gunboat copy ... so he has a point.

[cwjohm]

Hi

I have now looked at this issue for many years. I have analysed many passage results and interviewed many cruisers of production boats and performance boats.

Performance boats distinctly outperform production boats over the very short term. If you want to win the race running around the buoys during the week then a performance boat is definitely a plus as typically depending on which boat it will outshine a production boat by around 100%.

Similarly, if you want to get from port to port in daylight a performance boat is good value, not 100% better but still significantly better.

However, sea state, capability, and comfort of the crew, results in diminishing value over subsequently longer passages. IMO if you look at typical passage results the performance of the boat is proportional to the capability of the crew. It is all very well to have a Ferrari but if the roads are rough and the driver not very skilled then all of its power will be wasted.

It is amazing to me that over long passages - say over 7 days, unless any boat has a skilled racing crew, and assuming average sea conditions, a typical catamaran, production or performance will average 160-170nm per day. This is not to say that a performance boat cannot do a 300nm day but the real question is do they want to given the comfort of the crew. Similarly, a 300nm day may up the average but a few windless days at 100nm will soon kick it down.

Then there is the issue of sailing, rather than motoring. There is no doubt that a performance cat will allow you to sail in lighter winds. However, many cruisers nowadays overcome this with increasingly larger sailplans. A large parasailor or furling code zero, together with a large square head main is capable of getting even the heaviest boat going in lighter winds. This of course involves an element of cost, and the skipper has to have his wits about him to ensure that he does not get caught with too much canvas in increasing wind conditions.

The essential question then is the extra cost involved with a performance cat justified in terms of normal cruising which I would typically define at 7knots average or 170nm days, especially when comparing to a production catamaran well equipped with a larger sailplan to cover off light wind sailing at all points of sail.

As to the comparison between Lagoon, Leopard and FP, empirically I cannot see any material differences in performance. Typically, when someone points to performance differences I invariably find a relationship with capacity of the crew, or sailplan. I would like a dollar for the number of people who have sailed a Lagoon for the first time and stated "Well, that boat performed better than I expected". The reason for this will normally be sheeted back to the owner/skipper who knows his boat well and can sail at its limits and/or has equipped extra canvas to aid performance.

Acordingly, I would suggest that there is a compromise here somewhere. It is true that you pick two of cost, comfort and performance, but I would argue that with a production boat you can provide a little extra cost to improve both passaging and light wind performance, and you can go a long way to achieving all three elements. Of course this necessitates some degree of skill on bahlf of the owner both in beefing up the sail plan as well as sailing the boat.

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by cwjohm

Similarly, if you want to get from port to port in daylight a performance boat is good value, not 100% better but still significantly better.

However, sea state, capability, and comfort of the crew, results in diminishing value over subsequently longer passages. IMO if you look at typical passage results the performance of the boat is proportional to the capability of the crew. It is all very well to have a Ferrari but if the roads are rough and the driver not very skilled then all of its power will be wasted.

A great write-up, thank you!

I'm pondering these same questions, what the actual real life difference would be for us between, let's a say, an Outremer 51, a Privilege 510 and a Lagoon 52S.

For me, the most important aspects of performance would be:

- Ability to sail with very little wind (the upcoming Outremer 4E may be one of the current dreamboats in that respect)
- Ability to sail upwind in tight channels
- Comfortable motion in waves. This was a point the Outremer people expanded on, saying that their designs generally enabled better motion (less hobbyhorsing), thus a better living environment, better sleep, more rested crew, etc.

It would be wondeful to experience different sea/weather conditions on the different catamarans. It's not that easily done, though.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by tp12

This is the answer. Unless you build yourself.

And if you value your labor at more than $3/hr, it's still not cheap.

[Sos]

Originally Posted by Sand crab

This one doesn't tick all your boxes but it looks new and you just gotta see the interior. The good part it's way under $750K. They don't make em like they used to.
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/200...monis-3549475/

Now that is a boat I would want to have for a circumnavigation

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

A great write-up, thank you!

I'm pondering these same questions, what the actual real life difference would be for us between, let's a say, an Outremer 51, a Privilege 510 and a Lagoon 52S.

For me, the most important aspects of performance would be:

- Ability to sail with very little wind (the upcoming Outremer 4E may be one of the current dreamboats in that respect)
- Ability to sail upwind in tight channels
- Comfortable motion in waves. This was a point the Outremer people expanded on, saying that their designs generally enabled better motion (less hobbyhorsing), thus a better living environment, better sleep, more rested crew, etc.

It would be wondeful to experience different sea/weather conditions on the different catamarans. It's not that easily done, though.

Are your circumstances the same as the OP? - 6 kids, Pacific perhaps world cruise? No requirement to sail upwind in tight channels.

The whole point is that everyone has different needs. Manufacturers and brokers will always tailor their rhetoric and tell you what you want to hear.

It might be difficult but the only way to really know is to sail as many boats as possible.

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

Are your circumstances the same as the OP? - 6 kids, Pacific perhaps world cruise? No requirement to sail upwind in tight channels.

The whole point is that everyone has different needs. Manufacturers and brokers will always tailor their rhetoric and tell you what you want to hear.

It might be difficult but the only way to really know is to sail as many boats as possible.

Yes, same as OP, 4 kids (they are 6 in total, as we are, I understood). And a dog. Pacific, world cruise, yes.

[Astroman]

Originally Posted by cwjohm

Hi

I have now looked at this issue for many years. I have analysed many passage results and interviewed many cruisers of production boats and performance boats.

Excellent points and solid advice. Thank you!

[Astroman]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

A great write-up, thank you!

I'm pondering these same questions, what the actual real life difference would be for us between, let's a say, an Outremer 51, a Privilege 510 and a Lagoon 52S.

For me, the most important aspects of performance would be:

- Ability to sail with very little wind (the upcoming Outremer 4E may be one of the current dreamboats in that respect)
- Ability to sail upwind in tight channels
- Comfortable motion in waves. This was a point the Outremer people expanded on, saying that their designs generally enabled better motion (less hobbyhorsing), thus a better living environment, better sleep, more rested crew, etc.

It would be wondeful to experience different sea/weather conditions on the different catamarans. It's not that easily done, though.

Noticeable difference in performance between Outremer and Privilege/Lagoon. Noticeable difference with comfort between Privilege/Lagoon and Outremer for 6 person family. And, Noticeable difference between Lagoon and Privilege/Outremer build quality.

pick two. For me, it's comfort and value and then optimizing sail plan, options and captaining skills to get as much performance I can out of a cruising cat. (Folding props, code zero, skills, junk I take, etc.)

I'm also considering long term value. Depreciation of a 5 year old boat is going to be much less than a brand new Lagoon. If you have it for more than 5 years, that privilege will probably be worth more than the lagoon even though it's 5 years older.

From what I read, Privilege is marginally better performer than big three FP, lagoon, Leopard. My biggest complaint with Privilege? Why don't they open up those windows in the saloon? Word is the new version of the 51 does have bigger windows.

[riki]

If you could remove one element from the equation, you should go for this: https://www.yachtworld.fr/bateaux/20...at-66-3017735/