Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

[beiland]

Originally Posted by clockwork orange

Lots of beach cats today have masthead floats, in fact i installed a Hobie "mama bob" float this year on my Pacific cat 19, its the largest of 3 sizes they make i think. I used to own a Macgregor 36 cat that originally came with a masthead float but most people removed them because the boats were very unlikely to capsize and this proved to be correct in practice even though they only had a 2:1 length/beam ratio.

Steve.

LOTS of beach cats had their mast sealed against water intrusion. They did not have internal halyards, etc, and simple utilized silicone sealant on the end castings and to seal up the pop rivet holes on the mast. ....The mast tube itself becomes the buoyancy.

[beiland]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Fuse. Is the capsize load on the mainsheet determined...
a. hard on the wind.
b. reaching.
c. based upon dynamic loads or sustained loads.
In practice, this just does not work. However their are commercial models... that don't work.

Perhaps you need to look thru a few of these discussions
Capsize Prevention Devices

Wave induced capsize. This is probably the only one cruising cats worry about. Wind can be managed, but monstrous breaking waves are a hazard to everyone.

Just not true

The reality is that prudent cat sailors don't worry over capsize much.

I believe that is where the skipper of Anna would disagree with you
LossOfAnna

Final Thoughts

I failed to understand what was happening when the squall hit us. I thought it was just a moderately hard wind of
about 40 knots and did not even conceive of the danger of capsize. Only when I saw that Glen could not handle
the control line for the jib did the severity of the conditions we faced dawn on me and I moved to release the
mainsheet, alas, too late.

I underestimated the danger of capsize and had never prepared for it. I thought we might be holed by a container
or other object in the sea, or perhaps by collision with another vessel, but never seriously thought that capsize
was a threat. I should have at least considered the possibility of a violent squall and worked out defensive
procedures and practiced them, rather than be forced to think it all out at the moment of impact. I was too slow to
react as a result. Had I practiced encountering a squall perhaps I would have reacted more quickly and been
able to save Anna.

[beiland]

Originally Posted by clockwork orange

Hugo Meyers, one of the early designers of high performance cats used to sell a pendulum sheet release device over 30 years ago, it would not be difficult to make such a device. There have been a number of other very inexpensive sheet release devices sold over the years, I have a couple up in my attic that I picked up at a consignment store in Florida that involve a large clamcleat on a hinge board with a latch that is supposed to release when hit by a gust allowing the board which is hinged on the forward edge to flip up so the sheet releases out of the cleat. They were definitely a commercially made product that should work although I don't know what determines the release load to trip the latch. This device would obviously need to be installed ahead of the winch like a rope clutch would be and the line would need to be off the winch, flaked and free to run without getting tangled but this is just good rope management that should be practiced on any boat anyway. The simplest idea I have seen was simply using a black plastic clamcleat with a hole larger than the line drilled horizontally fore and aft just above the base, the idea is that it acts as a fuse, so when a shock load is applied to the line it is forced further down into the cleat by the angled teeth but the cheeks will flex apart and the rope will fall into the hole you drilled and be free to run, again, ahead of the winch and good housekeeping required, if the line gets tangled in something as it inevitably will this will not work but it is sure a cheap solution.


Steve.

Something like these smaller units.

Originally Posted by beiland

Thanks for correcting that link to the UpsideUp site.

Now when I look at the actual devices that are acting to 'release the sail loads' I see two basic themes:
1) Sheet releasefrom cam cleats
2) Winch with reversing option
Capteurs et priphriques

I've never had the occassion to experience the newer winches with backing capabilities, so I can't really comment on their true capabilities of instant release in emergency situations.

I have however had occassion to use a releasing cam cleat. there was a German company that produced one that I placed on the 'kick-up' centerboard lines onboard a Louisiane 37' catamaran I imported from France, and on the Firefly trimarans I was involved with.

Basically this releasing cam cleat was mounted on a plate that was allowed to pivot forward in a manner that allowed the sheet line to escape from the top between the cam cleats. The control of that mounting plates 'rotation release' was by a spring loaded detent pin that was adjustable by a micrometer type screw knob. They worked very well.
Pfeiffer adjustable tension cam cleat - Boat Design Net Gallery

It appears as though the UpSideUp system is making use of this similar arrangement with harkem cam cleats mounted on various plates and/or arms of a certain length.

My question though is are these cam cleats really capably of carrying the sheet loads of these BIG multihulls??

[beiland]

Originally Posted by malbert73

I was lucky enough to get out on a sea trial of an Atlantic 57 cat on the Chesapeake this fall in 10-15 kt breeze. Nice boat! Very fast.

And looking at the huge sailplan I really thought about how careful you'd have to be offshore not to get caught overcanvassed....

My big concern would be reading the cues that you're overpowered which seemed much more subtle on the cat than on a mono which will heel and depower to let you know there's an issue

Good observations there Malbert. The mono is easier to read. And the trimaran as well lets you know more about when you are getting overpowered.

Regarding that lofty "huge sailplan", I prefer to cut it down into a ketch rig,...something a lot of sailors have forgotten about,...or may never have experienced as they aren't very widely seen these days,....seems everyone wants to built ever-taller sloops

[beiland]

Originally Posted by Polux

My boat is on my avatar, it is a 7 year's old fast performance cruiser and what is the relevance regarding what I post? I like all types of boats and I am not sure I would like to be connected with a particular type of boat. Yes I have that one now but contrary to many I could have something else if I had more money not necessarily the same type of boat, providing it was fast and had a nice cruiser interior (that part more for my wife then me) and it pleased to my eyes.

It's a Comet 41?
I don't know the differences between the 41 & 51, but but the 51 was noted as pretty good performance boat at one time. Here are some wind tunnel and CFD studies carried out on some unusual sailing rigs in comparison to a Comet 51 mono
WIND TUNNEL AND CFD INVESTIGATION OF UNCONVENTIONAL RIGS
Wind Tunnel and CFD Investigation of Unconventional Rigs | Sara Muggiasca - Academia.edu

Interesting results

[beiland]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Yes, the traveler.

Something monohull sailors (and some cat sailors) don't realize is that on catamaran-rigged boats (3 stays, no backstay) most of the headstay tension comes from the mainsail. You can't put enough shroud tension on to straighten the forestay in a blow, so the headstay is kept straight (and the jib flat) by keeping the mainsheet tight. Slack the mainsheet, the jib becomes more full, drag and heeling increase, and you loose pointing. Typically you will also move the jib leads out at the same time, just a hair. On the other hand, pinching down the slot also depowers the rig, so if the adjustment was for a puff, the jib lead stays and the jib stays tight.

So yes, if the heeling forces is too high, you play the traveler and keep the mainsheet tight. You've got a long traveler and efficient purchase. You also feather into puffs. Yes, you will blow the mainsheet when things get out of hand, but it is not the primary control.

You got that right,...ans all the more reason for a good low friction traveler.

Of course that might not be necessary if you didn't have a mainsail

[beiland]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Really? We quite often sail under just the headsail, even to windward. Forestay tension is just fine, having the main up doesn't make a noticeable difference. (To the forestay tension)

You must not be sailing in much wind then, if you don't notice some sag in the forestay.

Look at the angles, .....on most 3 point catamaran rigs the shroud/backstay angle is often less that half the angle to the mast as is the forestay. How are you going to keep good forestay tension with that arrangement?

[44'cruisingcat]

Yes, I never sail in any wind.




Check out the angles on your mast aft design BTW.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by beiland

It's a Comet 41?
I don't know the differences between the 41 & 51, but but the 51 was noted as pretty good performance boat at one time. Here are some wind tunnel and CFD studies carried out on some unusual sailing rigs in comparison to a Comet 51 mono
WIND TUNNEL AND CFD INVESTIGATION OF UNCONVENTIONAL RIGS
Wind Tunnel and CFD Investigation of Unconventional Rigs | Sara Muggiasca - Academia.edu

Interesting results

I cannot access the PDF. The Comet 51 was a boat from the previous generation. Both the Comet 41s and the Comet 45s are comparatively faster.

The Comet 51 had several versions, from a center cockpit to a deck saloon to a aft cockip all relatively fast for the type of boat. The Aft cockpit was named 50S and it had a performance comparable to the one of the First 50, that is not also particularly fast for a performance boat.

Regarding the performance of the Comet 41s this guy, a tester for a sail magazine says : "The Comet 41S is a successful IMS/IRC racercruiser which fits tidily into that spectrum. Launched in Italy a couple of years ago it is well proven, with a string of racing successes. ...The 41S has true cruising potential and there are regular reminders through the boat, including traditional features like a big forward sail locker on the foredeck. As for racing, our test boat sails off an IRC rating of 1.099 with the 106 per cent overlap headsail. ... Off 1.099 at Cowes the 41S was rated 16-23 seconds an hour quicker than the IMX 40, and gained 16 seconds an hour off the First 44.7 and about 32-45 seconds off the J/133."
Comet 41s Review - Yachts and Yachting

One smaller boat from the same vintage and similar design, a Comet 38s made recently a hell of a race on the Middle Sea Race in real time beating many bigger cruiser racers. I followed that race on my blog ad said about that performance:

"After the first Class 40, coming at almost the same time, two other racing boats, a 2011 Club Swan 42 and a 2002 Farr 400 followed closely by two smaller cruiser racers, a 2015 JPK 10.80 and a 2010 Comet 38s both ahead of the 2nd Class 40 (2007). Followed a 2008 Sly 53, a 2008 Dufour 44p, a 2008 M37, a 2010 JPK 10.10, a 2010 Elan 450. Just some boats after, coming not far, the first 2 crew boat, a 2013 Solaris One 42 that finished ahead of the 3rd Class 40 (fully crewed) and leaved behind a racing 2 crew Class 950 and a 2 crewed Farr 45."

Can you get a link to that PDF that does not need a password?

[beiland]

Originally Posted by Polux

I really don't understand the purpose of your post. Yes the Pride of Baltimore or any tall ship for that matter can be, like a cat, capsized by a huge gust of wind and through the History some where and for the same reason: Like a cat those old designs don't have the ability to recover from a knock down and will capsize.

All RCD certified class A monohulls will be able to recover from a knock down and that includes practically all cruising monohulls with more than 33ft. Many smaller class B boats will be able to do that also.

So, can you explain me what a 200 year designed tall ship stability has to do with this thread?

The capsizing of Pride of Balt was not caused by a 'gust of wind' in the traditional sense. It was a miro-burst.
What is a Microburst?

[beiland]

Originally Posted by Polux

I cannot access the PDF.

Can you get a link to that PDF that does not need a password?

I think if you click on that link, AND wait for a a minute, the paper will pull up without a password.

It was slightly too large of a PDF to attach to this forum.

If that doesn't work, perhaps google that title and it will lead you to another copy.

[beiland]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Yes, I never sail in any wind.

Check out the angles on your mast aft design BTW.

What about them? Have you managed to read my rigging review calculations?? Its not as bad as it first appears to a lot of naysayers.

[beiland]

Originally Posted by Polux

When someone does not agree with something that is cleared stated it is expected to explain why. lalala is a very weak explanation and not a credible one

You need to go do some research on the details of the sinking of Pride of Balt. Its actually scary that these things can happen,....Mother Nature can be mysterious

[beiland]

Originally Posted by Delancey

FWIW - 2010, The skipper of a racing catamaran told yesterday how he spent six hours clinging to the capsized hull of his British-owned yacht fearing he had lost two of his crew in the Atlantic.

Ben Jones, 29, said the Spirit Of Antigua had been flipped by a freak gust of wind 120 miles from the coast of Brittany.

Ironically the boat is owned by British yachtsman Tony Bullimore, who famously capsized himself off the coast of Antartica in 1997. Bullimore was not on board last night.

Ben Jones, catamaran skipper, tells of terrifying six-hour ordeal after capsizing in the Atlantic | Daily Mail Online

LOOK at the clarity of that water, you can see the masthead under water.

[Seaslug Caravan]

Brian , you have been busy

Is there any word on rebuild/restoration of Anna?.