Catamaran Build Plans Recommendations?

[Narfi]

I received a quick and polite response from Bob Oram. His website is down because he has decided to retire.... :/

[billgewater]

Have never sailed a Schionning, but a few warnings.
The first from a professional builder in Western Australia some years ago. His grizzle was that the curved sheer lines (deck to hull join) used longitudinal timber strips and this created an exceptional extra amount of work. Building and fairing this part of the hulls was very time and labour consuming.
The second issue concerned a Schionning that had water throughout much of the hull laminate. The owner had the boat on the hard and invited me to drill a small hole anywhere. I drilled the edge of the transom and water dribbled out. Apparently it was balsa cored. The problem may have been caused by the builder but it was of some concern to say the least.
My own suggestions are that you spend a lot of time on cats. to get a feel for good ergonomics (layouts).
Having lived in the tropics for a long time I noticed that many cruising catamarans with large windows at the bridge deck house front, turned into greenhouses due to the constant sunlight entering. Many had placed al-foil tp reduce the problem.
When considering designs you might also like to assess how the inevitable PV panels will be built in. Most cats. end up with panels, so considering them at an early stage may be advisable.

A designer not mentioned above is Stuart Bloomfield (Melbourne, Aus.). He would be worth contacting..

[Narfi]

Good points. The quote I got on the Solitare was for a foam kit. And I am not allergic to hard work and sanding.

[owly]

Originally Posted by funjohnson

A few other options not mentioned so far are:

Dudley Dix for plywood
Tim Mumby for aluminum.

Don't even consider aluminum!! Where ply epoxy is one of the best materials for light weight rugged long life, and ease of construction, aluminum is one of the worst. It has a short fatigue life, is difficult to work with, and is extremely reactive in seawater. I've been working in metals for about 50 years, and I can assure you that if you want to create a "white elephant", build an aluminum catamaran!

[owly]

The sexy go fast streamlined windows typical on most bridge deck cabins are always going to be a problem unless they have sun shades. They look good but are as bilgewater pointed out a thermal liability. Look at freighters and work boats, commercial fishing boats, etc, and you will nearly always see reverse slope if any slope. It isn't a styling statement, it's for this reason. Note the louvered windows on at least one commercially built cat..... At least this mitigates this issue and still allows the streamlined sexy shape.
There is weight savings to be had from cored construction, also insulation value, and of course reduced condensation issues as a result. But coring below the waterline is questionable at best, and coring with balsa below the wl is just plain stupid. It is amounts to an encapsulated sponge that will quickly rot if there is ANY water intrusion. Coring offers great stiffness along with weight reduction, particularly if vacuum bagged or better yet infused... it would be silly to use sandwich construction without vacuum bagging or infusing IMHO.

Originally Posted by billgewater

Have never sailed a Schionning, but a few warnings.
The first from a professional builder in Western Australia some years ago. His grizzle was that the curved sheer lines (deck to hull join) used longitudinal timber strips and this created an exceptional extra amount of work. Building and fairing this part of the hulls was very time and labour consuming.
The second issue concerned a Schionning that had water throughout much of the hull laminate. The owner had the boat on the hard and invited me to drill a small hole anywhere. I drilled the edge of the transom and water dribbled out. Apparently it was balsa cored. The problem may have been caused by the builder but it was of some concern to say the least.
My own suggestions are that you spend a lot of time on cats. to get a feel for good ergonomics (layouts).
Having lived in the tropics for a long time I noticed that many cruising catamarans with large windows at the bridge deck house front, turned into greenhouses due to the constant sunlight entering. Many had placed al-foil tp reduce the problem.
When considering designs you might also like to assess how the inevitable PV panels will be built in. Most cats. end up with panels, so considering them at an early stage may be advisable.

A designer not mentioned above is Stuart Bloomfield (Melbourne, Aus.). He would be worth contacting..

[Redreuben]

https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/namb...pytopasteboard

[martinworswick]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
this one!

[GRIT]

I hate to talk bad about anyone, but I also hate to see people profit from dishonest advertising.

Schionning designs are, in my opinion, the sexiest Cats around, even the newest ones. But in my experience, his after sales support is actually non-existent. At least in North America.

I have first hand experience dealing with Mr and Mrs Schionning, and have also heard first hand from a North American builder of one of their designs. We both had the same experience.

A catamaran kit, however, would hopefully be supported by the supplier, rather than the designer.

Cheers, and good luck.
Paul.

[Narfi]

Response from Spirited, they do sell plans only so you can build yourself with their cut dimensions. Here is the quote from them,

Originally Posted by Spirited Email

The kit option starts at a cost of:

AUD125300 for the spirited 380
AUD175300 for the spirited 480

Ex tax and delivery would be approx AUD15000 to Seattle.

Plans only is also an option and are provided with all cutting dimensions for parts.

Also more information from Schionning in regards to the solitare,

Originally Posted by Schionning Email

Yes, the kit quote includes the furniture / interior sections.



There are a couple of ways we can send the kit … The most cost effective is by sea freight in a 40ft container. Usually the kit will fit comfortably in a single container with room to add other items. South Africa has proved to be substantially cheaper for the rig, fridge, pre-manufactured components, deck hardware etc. Many clients fill the container if they have the cashflow.

So when comparing the kit prices, the Schionning Solitare kit is about the same price as the Spirited 480.(roughly $125k usd after converting from aud or zar) However for similar length boats, the Solitare is a much bigger (fatter cruising oriented, higher payload) boat. The Spirited 480 is probably more comparable with the Arrow 1500 which would be significantly cheaper. I do think the spirited kit comes with the bottom of the hull already molded, so that would be a lot less work even between the kits maybe?

[Narfi]

Originally Posted by GRIT

I hate to talk bad about anyone, but I also hate to see people profit from dishonest advertising.

Schionning designs are, in my opinion, the sexiest Cats around, even the newest ones. But in my experience, his after sales support is actually non-existent. At least in North America.

I have first hand experience dealing with Mr and Mrs Schionning, and have also heard first hand from a North American builder of one of their designs. We both had the same experience.

A catamaran kit, however, would hopefully be supported by the supplier, rather than the designer.

Cheers, and good luck.
Paul.

That doesn't tell me a whole lot
What were your expectations and what was your experience?
I have seen lots of different schionning builds online and haven't seen any complaints about them.
Was there an actual issue, or was it just less interaction that you were expecting? I feel in this day and age of technology and easy communication we often feel entitled to instantaneous help and responses even when dealing with people, companies, and engineers from the 'old guard' who may not have embraced the instant gratification culture we live in now. Nothing against you of course, I don't know you or what your experiences were, just asking because I want to get as much information about all aspects of the different designs, designers, technologies, build styles, etc.... as I can so that our family can make the best decision for us.

[Matt Johnson]

I don't believe the Spirited quote included the molded hulls or sheer panels.... they can't fit in a 40' shipping container and they haven't developed a way around that. When we received a quote from them a few months ago, the hulls bottoms were provided in flat panel and you cut them into strips to strip plank.

Matt

[Narfi]

Originally Posted by funjohnson

I don't believe the Spirited quote included the molded hulls or sheer panels.... they can't fit in a 40' shipping container and they haven't developed a way around that. When we received a quote from them a few months ago, the hulls bottoms were provided in flat panel and you cut them into strips to strip plank.

Matt

Ok, so it is an apples to apples quote then. good info

[GRIT]

My apologies for not being more clear.

When I was planning my build, Schionning used to offer "unlimited support" of their plans.

Yet, when my friend was building, he had one question in 6 years, and Schionning wanted to bill him for the answer.

When I was emailing them, regards support, it was 3-4 weeks between my e-mailed questions, and their responses, which were quite unhelpful. Then, when I called on the phone, they were very unhelpful with two technical questions I had regards the design; until Mrs told Mr that I was a potential purchaser, rather than a plan owner, then he was suddenly very talkative and personable.

I felt like I was talking to a used car salesman, and didn't buy their plans. These weren't the only two things I found lacking, but they were the most telling.

The Mr and Mrs Schionning, of whom I refer, are the "Seniors" of the Schionning clan. I've not dealt with the younger generation Schionnings. The plans were for a "from scratch" build, not a kit.

I've not related the entire tale, and those reading this may rebut, or pick apart my examples, as they wish. It's difficult to relate experiences, and the resulting impressions, one gets from dealing with a salesperson (good or bad). But for $12000 USD, I expected more.

To properly value my opinion (good or bad), you'd have to know more about me. The best I can suggest, is to read some of my previous posts, and decide for yourself, the value of the source. I'm not what some would call a negative Nelly, nor am I suggesting you don't buy their plans. I'm simply suggesting that their support might not be what you expect, from the advertising. Unless, of course, they no longer suggest they have "unlimited support" for their plans.


Cheers, and good luck.
Paul.

[Matt Johnson]

I think you'll find Schionning Designs a completely different experience now compared to even a few years ago. Jeff doesn't handle the day to day, and all my experience has been with Rob out of South Africa - not a Schionning family member.

I can't comment on the after sales support - I've also heard good and bad- but everything I've seen so far seems like they (Rob) are always there to help.


Matt

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by CarlF

I would think hard about a Warram.

Take a similar amount of plywood and resin and build a better cat that may actually pay for itself on sale.