Catamaran Charter Issue in Greece

[alex_sauvage]

Originally Posted by wcapital

I've chartered many vessels over the last 4 decades, many of them catamarans including at least one larger one which the company normally did not allow to go out bareboat. Never once had I ever been asked to show any sort of credentials. The more frequent requirement for them seems to be a recent trend - whereas a drivers' license has been an obvious, known requirement to drive a vehicle since before I was born - so that comparison holds no water.

However, I've never chartered in Europe; but I DO know, as a casual reader of these blogs and various publications, that such licenses ARE more commonly required - and would not think of putting my money down and committing to a charter and associated travel without first figuring out exactly what would be required and being certain I could fulfill such requirements.

Sailing license requirement is not coming from a charter company, but rather from authorities of the country where you sail. BVI and other carribean islands don't have such requirements, so you can charter without them. Europe is different story and most places require you to have some kind of certification. Which one exactly and how strictly it is enforced depends on locality. Croatia does also require radio operator license, at least in theory, but I don't remember how strict they are about it

[Chuck Hawley]

Originally Posted by bensolomon

You need the International Certificate of Competency. It's all over the Internet when considering chartering in Europe. It's an R Y A certification that requires a fair amount of coursework, but it's easy enough to get in the States. You can do it on one weekend. It is what I did prior to chartering in Greece and now as I look ahead to Croatia.

Precisely. Available in the U.S. from either US Sailing or ASA. I got mine in one day on SF Bay, but I also create course materials for US Sailing and I have a lot of experience. My chartering friends were able to do it in a weekend for something like $600 apiece. Three courses were required: Basic Keelboat, Advanced Keelboat, and Bareboat Chartering. Since ASA uses slightly different terms (and numbers their courses), it will be slightly different with them.

I've heard the certificate called an ICC (International Certificate of Compliance or Competency) or an ICP (International Certificate of Proficiency). Regardless, mine is in a little passport folder which was immediately recognized by the Moorings in Croatia (and, in fact, it's labeled "International Proficiency Certificate" for "Navigating in Mediterranean Waters". So, an IPC. So many initials, so little time.

I have two thoughts on your predicament, and I know very little about the situation.

1. A modest amount of investigation online could have resolved this early on.
2. Their offer of a skipper was a pretty good compromise.

Cheers,

Chuck Hawley

[FabioC]

I work with several charter companies and I have seen how different companies handle similar situations. From reading your email, I think there are two answers:

A. Strictly "legally", Dream Yacht Charters is not at fault, and strictly speaking they do not have any obligation to refund your money. They stated the requirement of a license in the email, the fact that you missed it is not their fault (a better company would have reminded you sooner, but that is good customer relationship, not an obligation). Even the fact that their home base was not able to clearly explain what a "license" is, cannot be taken as a fault (an analogy is an airline sending you an email that the destination requires a visa, but not telling you exactly what type of visa to get or how to get it).

B. Strictly "customer service or business relationships", Dream Yacht Charters messed it up and the result is that you are now enjoying Berlin, which is a very interesting city, but probably not as good as a Greek island in terms of swimming and sailing... :-)
Their reputation is their biggest asset, and thus I would expect they will offer you some way to resolve the issue (in fact, they did, when they offered you a free skipper, which in fairness to them, should be read as an attempt to get you on a boat for your vacation).
Since the free skipper solution was not workable, I would expect that they will be amenable to give you credit for a future charter (it is unclear from your email, but they may have already done so). Most likely, when you eventually go on that charter, they will throw some good gesture as well (e.g., free food, or a bottle of champagne, or free fuel, or the use of a free kayak, or a free extra day, or free pick up from airport, something like that).
However, as for refunding your money, I am not surprised that they are resisting it. I think many medium charter companies would. I would not label them necessarily as "bad businesses" because of that. This is simply the result of the reality of the charter business. Your money has probably already changed hands several times, and a refund may be very painful for Dream Yacht Charters (they are not the Moorings for sure). In addition, from a strictly business perspective, giving you credit for a future charter is preferable to them over a refund. With a refund, they have lost you as a customer forever (objectively, you will be left with only the bad experience, and you will never charter from them nor recommend them); with a credit, they have a chance to make it right (you may end up enjoying your future charter greatly, they may treat you as a VIP, who knows...).

[Lihuedooley77]

Probably the best thing to do for anyone thinking of bare boat chartering in Greece is to get whatever certification that would be accepted, but exactly what that certificate is is a wild guess .

I hold a U,S,C,G, Merchant marine captains license ....I needed 720 days at sea documented sea time just to sit for the 100 ton license, which now was boosted up to 500 tons near coastal ( on the 5th issue with renewals every 5
yeas. ). That test was quite extensive with several different evolutions many of which required 90 % for passing. That complete test took a full and a half .

Point being if a company has no clue as to requirements, I would give them a wide berth.

We have bare boat chartered in Australia, Tahiti, Tonga, Bahamas, BVI, French West Indies, Windwards and Grenadies, and in Europe, it was a motor vessel up the River Shannon for two weeks.

Greece....we had intended to bareboat charter the Greek Islands, and I started thinking that I cannot read greek, speak greek, nor have ever been to greece and have no local knowledge...but wanted to go.

So, we kept it simple. With poisidon charters they had bare boat vessels on a flotila program, but we booked a cabin on a 60 foot vessel with skipper and cook. We could act as watch captains and stood helm watches and worked as crew as much as we wished. Others laid back and soaked up the rays .

Actually, I was pleased that we did that. The other vessels in the floatila were constantly screwing up, but had the attitude that that they were aces of the base. Do not know what certification that they may have had.

I am all for training programs, and learning, and getting instruction from the pros...but even those companies in the U.S.A the instruction quality and requirements can vary. As can the dedication and seamanship and knowledge of those who have completed the courses.

I also feel that Dream Charters, who charge many chests of gold, actually sound unprofessional , and rescheduling the charter for another time should have been offered.

Old military saying....the 7 P's.....Prior Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance..... I personally double check with the charter companies as to my qualifactions be acceptable. The office gals check, and they call back or email that they have everything of file and no problem.

Dream tried to square away the situation, a wee bit late. But having employees that do not have a clue is totally unacceptable .

The posters on this board were much more helpful as to the proper certifications than Dream Charters.

[shaunno71]

Your situation sounds difficult and i’m sorry to hear of the disruption to your holiday. A few thoughts on the topic:
From fairly simple research, the necessity to have a certificate of competence, skippers license etc. is fairly well known as an EU requirement, particularly enforced in the Med. Even if above is not clear to you, the overriding principle when you’re skipper of the boat, is that if things going wrong, it’s your fault.
If your knee-jerk reaction is to blame others and sue etc. when things don’t go to plan, i’d suggest you are not getting the maximum possible enjoyment out of sailing and should instead take up golf or camping. Why do I say this? there are so few pursuits anymore in life where we are truly self-sufficient, or need to be.
I realise it’s a stretch to have this cover pre-charter preparations, however I hope you take my point in the constructive way it’s intended.
if in future, your vessel runs into an issue offshore, your ability to step up and take responsibility and solve it will be key. What ever happens out there, it’s your fault / responsibility.
This is one of the most scary and yet cool things about sailing.
Having said all this, disappointing to hear of DYC’s poor customer service in this case. I’d like to think they should move your charter to another week at very least, once you’ve solved the paperwork issues.

[gmakhs]

You don't need a sailing license to sail in Greece, you need a sailing license to charter in Greece and that's a requirement of the insurance company.
I know that as a Greek.
About your case now, is clearly your fault , making a Google search or asking a.saling club would have give you an instant answer .
As about the refund , since they are not stating a license is required on the contract make a charge back from your bank or open a small cases court case .
If you paid by visa or.mastercard the process will be really simple call your bank they will inform.you better than me .
If you paid by bank transfer the process is more complex and maybe you will have to file a small cases court to get your money back .
If you go with the court option ask for court fees and cancelled tickets refund and reimbursement.

Make sure the company know your intentions maybe they will want to solve it on an easier way.

[Peeew]

When I chartered a sailboat from a private owner in Athens we were required to file a document of charter with the port police. No fee involved oddly enough. But the port police did require a copy of my ASA sailing certifications. My naval officer friend was denied a charter for lack of paperwork.

[captstu]

Last time I chartered in Greece, we took two smaller monohulls for our group.

Both I and the other captain are very experienced. I hold a USCG masters and have months of blue water experience. The other skipper had 7 documented ocean crossings.

Both of us submitted our resumes prior to the trip.

They gave us a verbal question to qualify our right to sail their boats. At one point my friend said, "how old are you sunny" - after he answered, she said, "I had skippered an Atlantic crossing by that time. Do you have any other questions?"

Ignoring our resume, not asking for clarification if needed, and trying hard to upsell us on a skipper with far less experience than either of.

My last charter in Greece.

[SFer]

Folks, I really appreciate all the feedback and input. I am certainly not pushing back on the need for some form of certification for chartering in Greece. And now that I have information here and from Moorings, I will get what's needed for the future.

With regard to searching online, yes, that was a possibility and I did do some quick searches. The problem I had was that if I find an answer online and it ends up not working for Dream Yacht Charter specifically for some reason, then I'm in the same boat. I would expect them to tell me exactly what the requirement is so I have confidence when I give them certification. I just needed what Moorings finally told me - even just one day earlier.

I appreciate the idea that taking the free skipper could have saved this trip. Unfortunately, last Monday they asked for $1260 more for the skipper, which triggered our family to replan the trip because we only had 48 hours before leaving. The idea of paying more to solve the problem seemed crazy to us.

The next day, out of the blue, on Tuesday, they offered the free skipper. So unfortunately, it wasn't even an option for us. Yes, we could have waited one more day I suppose - 24 hours before getting on a plane - to see if there was a solution, but we felt the pressure of time. We had lived almost a week of confusion and we needed some resolution one way or another.

A refund or credit would be great for us. But they have made it very clear that they are not accountable for this. I don't want to turn this into some big legal fight or nasty confrontation. I just wish someone at that company could look at the situation and say "hey, maybe we fumbled something here."

On a positive note, we have had a fantastic time touring three great cities - London, Copenhagen (right when the Nordstream race arrived), and Berlin. Not the same thing, but we have made the most of it and are enjoying ourselves. We're now headed to a few Greek islands as planned for our second week and maybe I can find a small sailboat to thrash around in. That would be just fine. Onward and upward.

In the meantime, if anyone has had a positive experience with a specific bareboat charter company in Greece or Croatia with catamarans, I'm all ears. We will certainly be going to both places, timing TBD.

Thanks againl

[grantheadifen]

The NauticEd SLC (Sailing License and Credentials) is a valid license for all the Mediterranean. It can be done very quickly and is easy to get as long as you are an experienced sailor.

The requirements are listed on the /SLC page on NauticEd and on our Blog site when you search for Mediterranean license. Essentially, online study and exams plus a 1 day on the water assessment of skills are required. You also must have sailing experience as a skipper listed in your online logbook.

Once the requirements are met the software issues the license instantly and it can be downloaded and printed out in Greek, Italian, English and Croatian.

All charterers need to be aware that no matter how much you have chartered or how much experience you have - YOU MUST HAVE A SAILING LICENSE.

Moorings and Sunsail both list that the NauticEd SLC is a valid license. Additionally, if you go to sailingeurope and tap on their blog, there is a big article there on the NauticEd SLC.

We at NauticEd work with Dream Yacht Charters all the time and refer clients to them through our agency. We have only had one complaint ever - it was the head was a bit stinky. Other than that, all clients have come back happy. We spend the extra time with clients to make sure that their sailing credentials are cleared and are proper. We're glad to help anyone with a check of their credentials and see if it matches the requirements.

[bensolomon]

I took my RYA Dayskipper curriculum through NauticEd. It was awesome! I learned so much, despite thinking that I was already a competent sailor. Grant was great! He was available to help, as well.

Ben

[12BCruzn]

This is what DYC sent me when I was confronted with this same issue. My sailing resumé goes back 50 years and includes over 6000 nm sailed but was not adequate for Croatia.
Skipper proof of competence for the Mediterranean
The skipper must have one of the following documents:
International Certificate of Competence (ICC) - This can be issued if you have completed an RYA Day Skipper Course, or you can take an ICC Assessment to prove competence from previous experience
IPC (International Proficiency Certificate) - You will need to have completed ASA 104 or a US Sailing Bareboat Cruising Course
NauticEd SLC (International Sailing License and Credentials)
RYA Day Skipper practical
US Sailing Bareboat Cruising Course
ASA 104 Bareboat Cruising Course
Sportbootführerschein See
Algemeen Stuurbrevet/ Brevet de conduite général
Le Permis Plaisance

[captstu]

I found I that only by pleading would they take my USCG 50 ton masters with a sailing and towing endorsement plus a log that included, among other items, a delivery, as skipper, from Cape town, SA to Barbados and an ASA teaching certificate.

If they don’t want my charter fee without their skipper, I’ll go elsewhere. This is just greed.

[steve77]

Originally Posted by captstu

I found I that only by pleading would they take my USCG 50 ton masters with a sailing and towing endorsement plus a log that included, among other items, a delivery, as skipper, from Cape town, SA to Barbados and an ASA teaching certificate.

If they don’t want my charter fee without their skipper, I’ll go elsewhere. This is just greed.

Watching the antics of some of the yahoos who are chartering in Greece makes me wonder just how effective their policy of requiring a sailing license is.

Like Captstu, I also have a 50 ton USCG Masters license, which I think I have only showed it once (I think in Montenegro). It looked official enough and they just shrugged their shoulders and said okay.

However, this was not for a charter...

Steve

[Palarran]

Originally Posted by gmakhs

You don't need a sailing license to sail in Greece, you need a sailing license to charter in Greece and that's a requirement of the insurance company.
I know that as a Greek.

I believe you are correct about not needing a license to sail a private yacht. I'm not sure who is driving the need for a license to charter. Only one time, in Milos, was I challenged about having a license. In that case, even though I had an ASA Certificate of Competency, the Port Police said I needed something from the British Virgin Islands as that was where my boat was flagged. He honestly had no idea what he was talking about but because he had those gold doodads sewn into his uniform he had power. But in typical Greek fashion, if you wait long enough with a sad look on your face, they just sign the papers and send you on your way.

But I have to agree with the Greek Captain who has posted that you should be qualified to sail these waters - wow have I seen some crazy stuff. Personally, the usual sailing experiences we have are not enough to keep you safe when the meltemi blows.