Catamaran Charter Issue in Greece

[SFer]

12BCruzn, what DYC office were you working with? I could not get hat simple an answer from 3 different contacts in what I believe is the U.S. office.

Grant, maybe you work with different offices of DYC? I don't know how to explain in my case why there was such confusion, which lead to them to at one point telling me to just take the online quiz to satisfy the requireent, which as you point out, is just one part of it. After reconvening on their end, I think, late in the process, they finally said "go talk to NauticEd" - which demonstrated to me that they, for some reason, didn't know what I should do.

As others have pointed out in this thread, it's easy to argue that they "technically" fulfilled their duties. From some kind of legal or pure execution perspective, they did their job. From a customer perspective, it all felt pretty bad. I've worked in professional services for 30+ years and I don't think I could have grown my own businesses if I gave a client a requirement and couldn't properly explain it and said "not my problem - go figure it out." Certainly their competitors don't.

I just hope this thread helps someone else avoid what I went through - it's a very expensive experience.

[nightowle]

I think there are some important points to keep in mind regarding the licensing requirements in Europe:

1. This only started a few (3-4) years ago through EU legislation. As such, it's only EU countries that are required to comport to this procedure.

2. It has nothing to do with your great resume of competency and time on the water, but rather the insurance companies that are driving this requirement and the legislation they helped draft.

3. Many charter customers come from varied countries, and the local charter staff just aren't knowledgeable enough to give customers the adequate info they need in terms of getting satisfactory certification in your home country. Hopefully, this will change has the confusion over the new requirements subsides in time.

As a side note: 18 months ago I had to hustle to get the ASA 104 cert before a charter in Italy. The clerk at the office was very blase after looking at it. Much like showing your ID to a bartender. Didn't make me feel great about the time, expense and stress of taking the course but at least I had the "papers" for getting a boat.

[yeloya]

Let me start by saying that if you were pn a local ghreek charter company, most probably the issue would have been handled in a better way. I am not blaming any multinational charter company but operating in 1000 countries doesn't mean that they are good in every sense in all of these countries. Local companies have local contacts and sometimes that help a lot particularly in Med countries where the regulations are not clear, mostly absurd and not every time applied everywhere and to everybody.
You missed the email which was sent to you long ago, you didn't bother to google or call them and seek for advice earlier. Being small local charter company we would have called you several times and explain the requirements. I cannot blame for not doing so, they are huge companies opearating globally and most of the communications are automated. If the computer says that a message was sent, it is assumed that you received and read it. They don't have time and people to follow up and call you. Remember also that they have hypercomplicated organisations, booking center in one country, the base manager maybe thousand miles away (likely a junior expat..) the accounting department soemwherelse and the guy who supposed to make a decision to refund yr money out of reach.
I know that because I bought a cat from DYC in there Kotor Montenegro base. The base manager couldn't find for two days a winch handle that was missing and a simple DC switch that was not working and teh boat which was ready to be chartered accoring to them was in terrible conditions. I couldn't reach anybody in their organization to get the things sorted out. Finally when they said everything was ready, I went with the boat to the custom jetty but they kept me there for 8 hours because some papers were missing. I could leave the port after midnight when some local people came in and convinced somehow the officiers..


With less than 2 weeks to yr charter week, I don't think any charter company would have send yr money back. In some cases (death, serious injury or health conditions, etc) we cancel the booking and offer the customer another week for the same or next year with the same terms and conditions.


Cheers


Yeloya

[CatNewBee]

I am not aware of the laws in Grece, in Germany it is pretty clear ( Greeks invented burocracy, Germans drove it to the edge of perfection...)

Regarding sailing (German law). You can sail any vessel with engine less than 15hp without a license, including under sails. If the vessel has an engine with 15hp or more ON BOARD, a sailing license is required (Sport Boot Fuehrerschein See - SBF). With this one you can sail any non-commercial vessel worldwide, in reciprocity any license required in your country will be accepted for the type of vessel you sail.

There are higher graded licenses too that show more competence like coastal skipper (SKS), high sea skipper etc, but they are legally not required if you not skipper for money.

It is similar in most European countries.

You definitely do need a short range certificate (SRC - radio operator license) if a VHF is installed on board too. Many charter companies in the EU require for bare foot charter either a higher graded license like the coastal skipper (SKS) or at least two person on board with the basic license (SBF), but this are not the law requirements, but company policies.

If in your country is no license required to sail this type of vessel in theory it will be not required in EU waters because of the reciprocity, so you can enter the area with your boat without being punished.

The charter companies manage the assets of their clients and it is understandable they have to require some sort of qualification and comply with the local laws / insurance requirements.
No license means not proved qualification in Europe, you need something on paper with a picture of you, a stamp and a signature of an official entity. Thats all, it could be RYA, ASA or anything else.

And this is where confusion starts. A local low paid charter agent is not in the position to know the local laws in every country of the world regarding sailing licenses for a particular boat type. Reciprocity means ALL licenses eligable in ANY home country are accepted, but no license is not an option.

[12BCruzn]

Originally Posted by SFer

12BCruzn, what DYC office were you working with? I could not get hat simple an answer from 3 different contacts in what I believe is the U.S. office.

Grant, maybe you work with different offices of DYC? I don't know how to explain in my case why there was such confusion, which lead to them to at one point telling me to just take the online quiz to satisfy the requireent, which as you point out, is just one part of it. After reconvening on their end, I think, late in the process, they finally said "go talk to NauticEd" - which demonstrated to me that they, for some reason, didn't know what I should do.

As others have pointed out in this thread, it's easy to argue that they "technically" fulfilled their duties. From some kind of legal or pure execution perspective, they did their job. From a customer perspective, it all felt pretty bad. I've worked in professional services for 30+ years and I don't think I could have grown my own businesses if I gave a client a requirement and couldn't properly explain it and said "not my problem - go figure it out." Certainly their competitors don't.

I just hope this thread helps someone else avoid what I went through - it's a very expensive experience.

SFer, this information was given to me via customercare@dreamyachtcharter.com
I have been speaking with Heather.

I am now going by what she has told me and am hoping that indeed the ASA 104 certification will be what is required. My charter is in 2 weeks.

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by captstu

If they don’t want my charter fee without their skipper, I’ll go elsewhere. This is just greed.

Its not their choice. Even if Greece government did not require a license their insurance company certainly does.


Btw: as far as i know it's been a European requirement for it's member states to require a boating license for boats with engine larger than 15hp. But as always the southern countries don't necessarily change their legislation in a timely manner.

[windrider9999]

[QUOTE=riki;2662174]Never heard you can rent a cat without any kind of licence, would be very surprised if anybody would rent you a cat.

Not in the US. Not in the Virgins. Anybody can rent one if they show they have experience.. however, its my opinion that dream yachts doesn't typically require a lot of experience at all. I did know it was required in Greece though as we sailed there last year. We just booked a captain with us. Besides, he knew some spectacular off the beaten path places to go that tourists would never know.

[rabbi]

in Germany a drivers license was required by 1909. In the US by when? 1940? 1950?

So you still have 30 years of license free sailing left :-)


Btw: i hate those tourist locations with boat rentals. "No license required" advertising signs mean the waters and bays within 5nm are dangerous from 10am to 4pm.

[SFer]

Yeloya, I appreciate your perspective on local vs. multinational organizations. I've always wondered which route to take. My experience with Moorings has been ok - and on this specific issue, they were able to simply answer my question "what is a sailing license?" in two minutes. If I had their answer 10 days before my charter from DYC, I could have easily worked out a solution.

And as mentioned before, if I'm going to show paperwork to my charter company, I need to know it's something they are going to accept - so I really wanted a clear answer from them, which I never got.

After this experience, I'm leaning toward shifting our bookings to local companies or Moorings. If anyone wants to recommend a good Greek or Croatian firm, please let me know.

Chris

[alex_sauvage]

Originally Posted by SFer

Yeloya, I appreciate your perspective on local vs. multinational organizations. I've always wondered which route to take. My experience with Moorings has been ok - and on this specific issue, they were able to simply answer my question "what is a sailing license?" in two minutes. If I had their answer 10 days before my charter from DYC, I could have easily worked out a solution.

And as mentioned before, if I'm going to show paperwork to my charter company, I need to know it's something they are going to accept - so I really wanted a clear answer from them, which I never got.

After this experience, I'm leaning toward shifting our bookings to local companies or Moorings. If anyone wants to recommend a good Greek or Croatian firm, please let me know.

Chris

Check www.sailingissues.com website. He got a lot of information there regarding sailing/chartering in Greece and Turkey and can get you in touch with good local charter companies

[Augi]

As others have pointed there out was poor communication by both parties but mostly on the side of the op.

Seems like Dream Yachts offering a skipper or credit to book another charter in the future made up for their lesser culpability.

Croatia in addition to "sailing license", requires a VHF license.

I recently got ASA certified to bareboat charter. A mother and grown son were in my class whose husband / father was a very experienced sailor, instructor, etc. They were planning to bareboat charter for two weeks from Dubrovnik including sailing in Montenegro. They were taking the class because Montenegro required at least two aboard to be licensed. Not sure but maybe that was due to the age of the husband / father.

[SFer]

Thanks, Augi. To clarify, since this thread is a bit long, Dream Yacht Charter offered a free skipper one day before I had to leave the country for the trip. I had already been forced to re-plan the trip two days prior based in large part on them asking for $1260 more for the skipper two days prior. So on Monday, they ask for more money, which causes me to replan, and then a day later they make the offer.

No credit has ever been offered by them for the future.

I don't expect them to do anything at this point. What I did learn in the process was that Moorings (and probably local charter companies) could answer the question, "what is a saling license?" immediately upon being asked, which would have allowed me enough time to sort it out.

[Rotten Ricky]

If it helps at all, sometimes in these situations where proof of competency in operating a sailboat is required, a letter/email from a boat-owner's insurance company of having been claims-free over some years might assuage the charter company concerns in a pinch. I was grateful that the Greek charter company I used some years ago accepted my claims-free record of about 20 years and my explanation that the sailing school with whom I had passed courses, went bankrupt afterwards and never actually issued my certificates. A letter/email from a previous charter company might also have helped. I was grateful for the charter company's understanding - but I was not chartering a half-million dollar cat. Good to know the new requirements ahead of time.

Cheers, RR.

[edsml]

I just returned from sailing in Greece with DYC, and a couple of weeks before in Croatia with a different company. I have sailed both countries before. I have had no issues with DYC, but in your position would push for a future charter.

A couple of side issues for the future: 1. Greece is more challenging than Croatia. I've experienced the meltemi (+30 kts.) two out of three times there, despite sailing in June, and there is a longer fetch for the sea state to build. 2. I always charter monos in those countries as the food is part of the attraction and I love being on the town quay, but as you prefer to anchor out, I can understand a cat. This is also easier to do in Croatia, where there are fewer, more crowded, and far more expensive marinas (we arrived at Hvar town this time at 8:30, yes a.m., and were told they were full. A mooring ball in the Pakleni was €90). There also seem to be far more great anchorages there without marinas than Greece, but just my impression-- I don't seek them out. 3. You may be tempted to work around the requirement in Greece as some seemed to suggest, but I would recommend staying with larger cos. I booked with a small company called SYCG, only to find the boat and the co. were not available when we arrived. It appears to have been an internet scam. We were able to get a last-minute substitute with DYC.

Ed

[grtblu]

We had a similar experience chartering in Croatia. A UK broker found us a catamaran and we booked with them. During the paperwork we asked repeatedly if all necessary contracts, and certifications were in place and we were assured that they were. We then booked our flights, first and last night hotels and arrived at the yacht harbor. The first thing out of the mouth of the yacht charterer at the marina was "where is your captains license"? We did not have such a license and this was the first anyone ever mentioned it. The charterer said we "must have a captains license". We had copies of all correspondence with the broker, with the charterer and argued with the guy to no avail. What we had was a marine radio license, a government issued recreational boating license, and proof of an offshore sailing course plus a long resume' of sailing experience on 40-60 foot yachts. This didn't matter. I happen to have a private pilots license and had this along. I claimed that air and water are both liquids, that navigation of an aircraft is similar to sailing navigation (harder because you're traveling much faster), that radio and communications are the same and as "pilot in command of an aircraft" I am the captain. We asked would he accept this in lieu of a "captains license" and he reluctantly accepted it and took a copy of the pilots license. Off we sailed for 3 weeks in Croatia. It later occurred to us that what he may have wanted was a bribe but we coming from a non-bribing country were clueless about this ritual. Later we determined that the "captains license" was really an "international sailing certificate", a standardized course and certificate that is accepted by many countries worldwide. What is unacceptable, is that the yacht brokers don't seems aware of this requirement in some of the countries that demand the certificate. So far only Greece and Croatia seem to insist on it.