Catamaran live-aboard advice

[Fore and Aft]

Rabbi your right about your hourly rate being so low when you build a boat. A second job would pay way more and you could be on the water sailing/ living aboard in your spare time.
Another issue is the quality of the finish. I surveyed a kit cat that the owner had run out of money to pay the boat builder to finish. The owner took over the job and it was like a train wreck inside. You could clearly see where the pro had finished and amateur had taken over.
Cheers

[ocean_groover]

To address the original question.

Yes, you can live quite comfortably full time on a 36ft cat. My wife and I have been doing it for 8 years now on our 36ft Grainger 'É' series, and we love it, and we've never looked longingly at a 40 footer. Especially not when;
cleaning the waterline
painting the bottom
polishing the topsides
replacing the rig, etc etc

Like you I did endless research and looked at numbers before buying - dry weight, loaded weight and so on. I've never been scientific enough to weigh everything as we loaded the boat but I'm pretty sure we've exceeded the recommended numbers - my shed in the stbd bow being probably the main culprit. But that glass and epoxy is getting used now I've been laid off from work cos of you-know-what; getting some repairs and improvements done.

But even loaded as we are, our passage times are still great. I plan on averaging 7.5 knots and usually do better. I have a small symmetrical kite a friend gave us off his S&S 30, 1.5 ounce; the hoist and the foot fit my boat perfectly. So in any breeze aft of the beam, I don't hoist the main, just the spinnaker. When we start seeing 13 plus knots of boatspeed too often we'll drop the kite and just roll out the headsail and still make 6.5-7 plus knots.
Point being; smaller boat, smaller sails, easier handling, but still good average speeds. The boat sits on rails, very well mannered even at good speeds.

I was concerned about the hobby-horsing issue and for this reason amongst others did look at 42-44 foot cats when searching. But eventually I was persuaded by Richard Woods' argument that the smallest boat that will fit your bill is the one to go for. And in our times sailing upwind in company with 40+ foot performance cats, I've watched them closely, and guess what? They're hobby-horsing too.

What I didn't compromise on was good bridge-deck clearance and daggerboards. Slap is just not an issue for us and when we need to, we make good VMG to windward. In 10-15 knots true we'll do 8 knots upwind easily, but as other cat owners will tell you, depending on sea-state, we'll often slow down as it can be hard on boat and crew.

I think you mentioned something about making a convertible day-berth in the bridgedeck saloon. I reckon this is a great idea, for watch-keeping or just general loafing; one day I'll get around to doing it on my boat.

While I do have daggerboards, the builder of my boat also put mini beaching keels on the bottom. This is a real bonus when it comes to beaching the boat for maintenance and a look. I have two small diesels on shaft drives, my personal preference.

Having owned a Grainger I would get another Grainger in an instant. I really like the look of the Raku range. Like other designers for home-build, these days he seems to be drawing boats for flat-panel construction and eliminating the strip-planked radii that would have soaked up a lot of time in the build of my boat. If as you say an 11m Raku allows pre-fabbed panels to be delivered this would save another bundle of build-time.

I also really rate Bob Orams designs. Grainger, Oram, Schionning were pretty much my shortlist. My personal preference for foam not balsa core unfortunately left most Schionnings and Orams off my list. My wife said a big NO when I suggested I might build one, and she was right. If we had owned the land and shed the numbers would have looked better; having to rent the shed to build made buying second-hand a cheaper option.

As to whether you can finish a home build in reasonable time to a reasonable standard; well that's up to you. I do know from my time spent maintaining production cats from well-known marques that you won't need to try too hard to exceed the standards that world-famous cat-builders consider acceptable. My boat was home-built to a very high standard.

Doing the research is a really fun part of the process, enjoy it! Any more questions please ask. If you do proceed to a build you will become the king of the fillet, good luck!

[Morndenkainen]

The boat is 36x20. Your total area on that boat is going to be about 750sqft. Yes, it's big enough for a single couple to live on quite comfortably. If I were you, my main concern would be headroom. No one wants to live life constantly knocking themselves out or hunched over..

As far as your build times are looking, I've done commercial and residental contracting and remodeling for several years. That 1,000 hours may get you the hull assembled. That's going to take you 6 months, at 40 hours a week. You've got to plumb the boat, wire the boat, install the engines, install the interior flooring, furnishings, bathrooms, and do all the interior finishing as well. Expect that's going to take you another 500 hours. Then, add in another 30% for setbacks, delays, broken parts, etc...

At the end of the day, expect that the boat, start to finish, will take you a year of working full time at it, and while you may admittedly be good with manual labor, there's a certain amount of skill and fineness you need with many of these tasks. Are you willing to take the time to sit down, admit to yourself you've got no idea what you're doing, and learn? Will you enjoy the process? If yes, and your finances permit BOTH of you being off work for the duration of the build, I say go for it.

[GRIT]

Originally Posted by Morndenkainen

The boat is 36x20. Your total area on that boat is going to be about 750sqft. Yes, it's big enough for a single couple to live on quite comfortably. If I were you, my main concern would be headroom. No one wants to live life constantly knocking themselves out or hunched over..

As far as your build times are looking, I've done commercial and residental contracting and remodeling for several years. That 1,000 hours may get you the hull assembled. That's going to take you 6 months, at 40 hours a week. You've got to plumb the boat, wire the boat, install the engines, install the interior flooring, furnishings, bathrooms, and do all the interior finishing as well. Expect that's going to take you another 500 hours. Then, add in another 30% for setbacks, delays, broken parts, etc...

At the end of the day, expect that the boat, start to finish, will take you a year of working full time at it, and while you may admittedly be good with manual labor, there's a certain amount of skill and fineness you need with many of these tasks. Are you willing to take the time to sit down, admit to yourself you've got no idea what you're doing, and learn? Will you enjoy the process? If yes, and your finances permit BOTH of you being off work for the duration of the build, I say go for it.

Um, I don't think so. A year is incredibly fast, even for a kit. Unless you've got a bunch of folks helping you, it's not going to happen in a year.

I agree with most of the rest of your post.


We built our boat. It's 50 feet long and 25 feet wide. I'd say a 36 footer would have taken about 60% of the time to build, assuming it's from scratch, like we did.

A 36 foot boat is about 60% of the size of a 50 footer, give or take. And the hulls, windows, rigging, fairing, painting, all take a lot of time.

Manoeuvring 36 foot hulls around is much easier than 50 foot hulls. The work space is easier to come by too. A 20hp engine can be installed with two guys dragging it around on a skid. A 50-60hp engine doesn't go in as easily.

Everything is much heavier, and harder to handle, on a larger boat. I don't know how much different a 40 footer would be than a 36 footer, but I'd say 1000 hours difference might be close in the build time.

Building your own boat is NOT a waste of time, as mentioned by an earlier poster. Drinking yourself to a stuper, is a waste of time. Watching the boob toob is a waste of time. Building ANYTHING you want to own, is never a waste of time.

Working a second job would be nice, if you managed to save every cent of that extra money, you'd be further ahead. But we know ourselves better than that. More money, and working harder, often means more vacation time, or more "treats" to soothe the soul. It might end up that you've spent most of that extra, and aren't any closer to having your "dream boat" than you'd have been without the extra job.

Horses for courses, but there used to be a time when folks used to do most things for themselves. There's a very real sense of accomplishment when you've done the actual building.

36 feet is plenty to cruise, and the savings over a 40 footer will be noticeable.

Good luck to you.
Paul.

[Stefano_90]

Thanks everyone for the feedback, it is really appreciated.
I haven't figured out how to multi-quote yet so I am just putting my thoughts down, partly in answer to some of the posts:

- A Kit boat will get less resale value than a production boat? I see plenty of early 2000 Shionning cats for sale for more than brand new Leopard or Lagoons.. It seems to me that kit boats do have a higher resale value than a production boats ( wether the finish is done professionally is another story, but the aim is to do a good job there - I am not 6 years old playing with Lego anymore, I am a mechanical engineer).

- A Raku 36 max displacement ( 4500kg) is 25% of a Raku 48 (20000 kg). I have spent enough time researching to understand that building time is proportional to displacement and not length. The picture attached taken from a manufacturer's build times kind of confirms my estimates. Of course I will add a 30% extra for the unexpected.

- A 36 Raku costs in raw materials 45000$ less than a 40 foot. This is including all carbon parts prefabricated and is not an estimate, is an actual quote from Grangier and partners as for February 2021.

- No resale value and low hourly pay? A Raku 36 kit from Duflex cost 60000 Eur, including all materials, resins temporary mould frames and VAT.
A raku 36 "casco" ( bare hull ready for fit out) from a Belgian yard cost 235.000 Eur + VAT = 280.000.
I can do most of the work on the hull, and spend the 45.000 saved to have a professional do all the fairing work. That's 110.000 spent( rounded) for a 280.000 hull, 170.000 Eur of value created only on the hull.

- I really like the new 36 layout.. They increased the size of the chamfer panels compared to the 35 and it now fits two full queen beds in the hull afts, + another full size in the cabin area that I don't really need and it takes space, so I am thinking of trading that for a sofa bed and rearranging the cockpit for more space.
The single bed on the starboard bow will also go in order to have a walk-in storage. There is six feet headroom to access the hulls through the stairs, and full headroom in the hull. 1.6m in the seating area ( that is a seating area :P).
415mm draft boards up and 10Hp outboards specified by the design.
It looks very neat and should be fast and cheap to run

IF we commit to the build we are going to be that 5%

[Morndenkainen]

Grit, A year to build a 36ft catamaran isn't terribly fast. It's just that the vast majority of the people who are building these kits either can't, or won't commit to a full 40hr+, 5+ day week to their builds, have the organizational skills to pull it off, or have the ability to get help when they need it. Take your own build for example. How much time per week did you genuinely spend working on your boat? Not standing around talking or taking a break because it's hot out, not watching how-to videos, not driving to-from the site or running to the store for a single box of screws that you lost, not coming in for half a day to get one or two things prepped for the next day or getting tired of fairing/sanding and deciding to finish an area tomorrow... Just straight, solid work on the boat time. What got delayed because you had to wait for someone to help you out? Odds are, you spent a lot less time actually working on the boat than you thought.

As long as you had fun and enjoyed it, there's not a single thing wrong with the way you chose to build it.

I'm trying to highlight the difference between someone who's working at a slower pace because they genuinely enjoy working on their boat and they're taking their time learning and hanging out with friends in the process as opposed to the guy who's already got some levels of skill, coming in to get the boat built, do it right, and get out on the water. There's just entirely different levels of people here, I've been building things for over 25 years and retired at 40 because I figured out how to hit a nail instead of my thumb. I would not expect someone without my experience and resources (tools) to be able to compete with me either quality, or speed wise.

My question to the OP would be.... Which kind of builder are you?

My suggestion to the OP after looking at the Raku's floor plan would be...
Consider replacing one of the aft berths and moving the bathroom back there. There's nothing better than having a larger shower and more room around your toilet with easier access for when the macerator inevitably breaks and you've gotta deal with the poop tube.

[Seman]

I would aim at a min. of 40 feet.
Apparently cats below 40' hobby horse a lot, which can be very annoying.

[Matt Johnson]

Originally Posted by Morndenkainen

Grit, A year to build a 36ft catamaran isn't terribly fast. It's just that the vast majority of the people who are building these kits either can't, or won't commit to a full 40hr+, 5+ day week to their builds, have the organizational skills to pull it off, or have the ability to get help when they need it. Take your own build for example. How much time per week did you genuinely spend working on your boat? Not standing around talking or taking a break because it's hot out, not watching how-to videos, not driving to-from the site or running to the store for a single box of screws that you lost, not coming in for half a day to get one or two things prepped for the next day or getting tired of fairing/sanding and deciding to finish an area tomorrow... Just straight, solid work on the boat time. What got delayed because you had to wait for someone to help you out? Odds are, you spent a lot less time actually working on the boat than you thought.

As long as you had fun and enjoyed it, there's not a single thing wrong with the way you chose to build it.

I'm trying to highlight the difference between someone who's working at a slower pace because they genuinely enjoy working on their boat and they're taking their time learning and hanging out with friends in the process as opposed to the guy who's already got some levels of skill, coming in to get the boat built, do it right, and get out on the water. There's just entirely different levels of people here, I've been building things for over 25 years and retired at 40 because I figured out how to hit a nail instead of my thumb. I would not expect someone without my experience and resources (tools) to be able to compete with me either quality, or speed wise.

My question to the OP would be.... Which kind of builder are you?

My suggestion to the OP after looking at the Raku's floor plan would be...
Consider replacing one of the aft berths and moving the bathroom back there. There's nothing better than having a larger shower and more room around your toilet with easier access for when the macerator inevitably breaks and you've gotta deal with the poop tube.

The fact that professional yards don't build a custom boat within a year seems to make an amateur accomplishing this feat near impossible even for a spartan boat.

I've interviewed dozens of amateur builders and NOBODY was even close to that schedule.

Matt

[GRIT]

Originally Posted by Morndenkainen

Grit, A year to build a 36ft catamaran isn't terribly fast. It's just that the vast majority of the people who are building these kits either can't, or won't commit to a full 40hr+, 5+ day week to their builds, have the organizational skills to pull it off, or have the ability to get help when they need it. Take your own build for example. How much time per week did you genuinely spend working on your boat? Not standing around talking or taking a break because it's hot out, not watching how-to videos, not driving to-from the site or running to the store for a single box of screws that you lost, not coming in for half a day to get one or two things prepped for the next day or getting tired of fairing/sanding and deciding to finish an area tomorrow... Just straight, solid work on the boat time. What got delayed because you had to wait for someone to help you out? Odds are, you spent a lot less time actually working on the boat than you thought.

As long as you had fun and enjoyed it, there's not a single thing wrong with the way you chose to build it.

I'm trying to highlight the difference between someone who's working at a slower pace because they genuinely enjoy working on their boat and they're taking their time learning and hanging out with friends in the process as opposed to the guy who's already got some levels of skill, coming in to get the boat built, do it right, and get out on the water. There's just entirely different levels of people here, I've been building things for over 25 years and retired at 40 because I figured out how to hit a nail instead of my thumb. I would not expect someone without my experience and resources (tools) to be able to compete with me either quality, or speed wise.

My question to the OP would be.... Which kind of builder are you?

My suggestion to the OP after looking at the Raku's floor plan would be...
Consider replacing one of the aft berths and moving the bathroom back there. There's nothing better than having a larger shower and more room around your toilet with easier access for when the macerator inevitably breaks and you've gotta deal with the poop tube.

I'm curious; how many Catamarans have you built?

I've never built a house, so would you trust my time estimate on a house build, since I have built a catamaran?

I won't argue with you on this matter, as from your post, I don't think you've any idea what you're talking about. I don't think anyone can do a decent build of a 36 foot catamaran, from scratch, or even from a panel kit, in 2000 man hours. You did say "from start to finish" in a previous post.

I must say, getting screws, and parts, IS part of the build. And we didn't enjoy the build, so much as we endured it. We built because we could not afford to buy what we wanted.

I'll end this post by simply saying, I think you're way off with your time estimate.

Insert smileys where appropriate... I'm not angry, or upset, but I can't justify spending any more time on this subject, unless you have some experience to back up your claims.

Cheers.
Paul.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Seman

I would aim at a min. of 40 feet.

Apparently cats below 40' hobby horse a lot, which can be very annoying.

Cats below 40’ hobby horse a lot.......nah. I’m sure the larger a cat the smoother the ride will be, but to put a cut of at 40’? The Seawind 1000xl, which is 35-36’ has one of the smoothest motions I’ve felt on a cat. So I would say that design, the load and how one distributes the load has the most impact on motion.

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by smj

Cats below 40’ hobby horse a lot.......nah. I’m sure the larger a cat the smoother the ride will be, but to put a cut of at 40’? The Seawind 1000xl, which is 35-36’ has one of the smoothest motions I’ve felt on a cat. So I would say that design, the load and how one distributes the load has the most impact on motion.

IMO its more a factor of hull shape.
Lagoon 380 has a WLL of 36ft compared to the FP Mahe 36 with a WLL of 35ft.
The Lagoon 380 has a significantly reduced tendency to hobby horse. I think mostly due to the much wider stern section.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by rabbi

Be sure you know what you are getting into.

In the early 2000s I had a similar dream, but spent a few months reading through every building blog I could find. Blogs typically included all the ugly details and numbers, unlike today's shiny YT channels which just show edited reality to sell the drama.

Plenty (most?) projects were abandoned / sold, very few made it to the end, and even fewer went sailing fulltime as they dreamed of.
Of those who started with a partner/family almost nobody still had an intact family to go cruising with. Actually I remember only one happy family.


By the time a homebuilt boat is ready for departure the young active couple will be 5+ years older, tired and sick of boat building, and probably have created some offspring along the way.
Of course only if (and that is a big IF) the couple is still a couple. Often its no a one-man-show.


Resale value... I don't think you will create significant value by building a boat. I guess at the end most DIY projects at least in Europe sell at or below costs for material. If you do make money it will be very very little, you will likely earn less than 5 Euro per hour spent on building the boat.

If you want resale value: spend your time on the internet, scout for bargain deals of any suitable boat model, and be ready to buy one if it crosses your way.
For example I once bought a boat with completely run-down electronics, electrics, and a few other nicks and dents: Radar defunc, autopilot physically broken and also giving errors, tridata with strange readings. Batteries were new but almost dead, ...
She fell through the survey with a previous buyer. She was a complete mess and nobody wanted her. I bought her, installed all new electronics, fixed everything else and sold two years later with 30k profit.


There are IMO only two valid reasons for building a boat.
1) You -and your partner- enjoy the build more than the sailing. Nothing wrong with that, have fun!
2) You want something that just does not exist on the market. And you want it badly enough to justify years wasted in the building shed instead of being on the water.


If you don't fall into either category I'd suggest to get a production boat and just go sailing. If you don't have enough money to buy one then work overtime, or get a second job. You will still have more spare time & money than anyone building a boat.
It may not be the perfect boat you picture in your dreams but at the end it just doesn't matter.

Sunsets are the same for everyone and I have met plenty of happy folks on really shitty boats.

This excellent post quoted to encourage OP to read it again.



Stefano, if your purpose is to become a boatbuilder, I'd guess you could maybe be on an OK track. (?) OTOH, if your purpose is to go sailing... I suspect your proposed path is likely the most difficult and time-consuming way to get there from here.

-Chris

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by Stefano_90

Thanks everyone for the feedback, it is really appreciated.
I haven't figured out how to multi-quote yet so I am just putting my thoughts down, partly in answer to some of the posts:

- A Kit boat will get less resale value than a production boat? I see plenty of early 2000 Shionning cats for sale for more than brand new Leopard or Lagoons.. It seems to me that kit boats do have a higher resale value than a production boats ( wether the finish is done professionally is another story, but the aim is to do a good job there - I am not 6 years old playing with Lego anymore, I am a mechanical engineer).

- A Raku 36 max displacement ( 4500kg) is 25% of a Raku 48 (20000 kg). I have spent enough time researching to understand that building time is proportional to displacement and not length. The picture attached taken from a manufacturer's build times kind of confirms my estimates. Of course I will add a 30% extra for the unexpected.

- A 36 Raku costs in raw materials 45000$ less than a 40 foot. This is including all carbon parts prefabricated and is not an estimate, is an actual quote from Grangier and partners as for February 2021.

- No resale value and low hourly pay? A Raku 36 kit from Duflex cost 60000 Eur, including all materials, resins temporary mould frames and VAT.
A raku 36 "casco" ( bare hull ready for fit out) from a Belgian yard cost 235.000 Eur + VAT = 280.000.
I can do most of the work on the hull, and spend the 45.000 saved to have a professional do all the fairing work. That's 110.000 spent( rounded) for a 280.000 hull, 170.000 Eur of value created only on the hull.

- I really like the new 36 layout.. They increased the size of the chamfer panels compared to the 35 and it now fits two full queen beds in the hull afts, + another full size in the cabin area that I don't really need and it takes space, so I am thinking of trading that for a sofa bed and rearranging the cockpit for more space.
The single bed on the starboard bow will also go in order to have a walk-in storage. There is six feet headroom to access the hulls through the stairs, and full headroom in the hull. 1.6m in the seating area ( that is a seating area :P).
415mm draft boards up and 10Hp outboards specified by the design.
It looks very neat and should be fast and cheap to run

IF we commit to the build we are going to be that 5%

I don't know where you are located. I only know Europe.

Just because some yard offers professionally 36ft hull for 280.000 Euro doesn't mean much. Lets ask the yard to finish this hull to professional standards. Final cost will be >=500k Euro.
Realistic market value when finished, that is actual selling price within 6months of the boat being professionally advertised on yachtworld?
maybe 250k Euro?


Lets say you build yourself and decide to sell the finished bare hull. Do you think anyone will pay you 280k Euro? Realistically it's more like 30-50k after a few years of advertising.
My guess is more half-finished boats are scrapped than sold.

[catsketcher]

I have built 4 multis and if Stefano wants to build a boat because he thinks it will make him happy then fine but I would add some caution.

Out of the four boats I have built I sincerely regret building two of them. One, a 38ft tri for my best friend cost me my friendship with my best mate and another was a great innovative boat that I didn't really want or need but I thought would change small cat design. My friend's boat may have helped him down the spiral of depression that caused him to suicide. It was a nice boat but in the end, it had been such an effort and all it was was a boat, a nice boat, but a boat nonetheless. With all its foibles and blemishes, just like us. It did not lead to nirvana, no boat can.

I would recommend Stefano look for a nice 32 footer to go sailing in. My pick for a European cat would definitely be a Woods Eclipse 32. They are a fabulous boat and Stefan could probably find a local one and go sailing as fast as a Granger Raku tomorrow. There is no way he could build a Raku for this little.

https://dailyboats.com/boat/30981-buy-woods-eclipse-99

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wG4MzySI2Cg

Richard Woods is my type of designer. Like Robin Chamberlin he is one of the very few designers who actually builds his own designs and then takes them for long, liveaboard cruises. As such his boats are free from extras that make them pricier or less livable. Stefano would be pretty silly to be chatting to Aussie designers, without giving Richard an email and getting to look over a couple of Euro cats that are similar in pedigree. The Eclipse would be my choice of a great Euro cat to slide around the Med - compact nature for marinas and berthing, very livable and yet ocean capable.

I am very happy with my 38ft cat. In 21 years of ownership I have never wanted a larger cat, even with my family of four living on board for 3 years. She hobbyhorses far less than typical production cats because she has centralised weight distribution with composite construction keeping weight out of the ends, is very easy to sail and because she is so simple, she is far less money to run than a larger cat. Each to their own, but today's "small" cat has far more room than the roomy trimarans that were the backbone of multi cruising in the 70-90s - Searunners, Nicols and Pivers.

If you can have keep your paraphenalia down to about 1 tonne, then you can live aboard a nice 35-38 footer very easily. Maybe it is my bushwalking, or kayaking background, but a simple 35-38 footer can be more than totally adequate for a families needs. If Stefano can moderate his desires, he can achieve his dreams quite quickly - go look at an Eclipse!

[rabbi]

Regarding size for living aboard:
We lived happily on a Lagoon 410 for a year, then back to land, then as the kids grew older we spend several months per year on a FP Mahe 36 and later a 380.

Honestly no real difference for us for living onboard. As long as everyone has his own room, and sufficient shaded area outside size is not a concern.
Cockpit party space is certainly reduced between the Lagoon 410 and a Mahe but that use case isn't important for us.

Reduced payload is easily compensated by a credit card & DHL, at least in Europe and other developed cruising grounds.