Catamaran live-aboard advice

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by catsketcher

My pick for a European cat would definitely be a Woods Eclipse 32. They are a fabulous boat and Stefan could probably find a local one and go sailing as fast as a Granger Raku tomorrow.


Richard Woods is my type of designer. Like Robin Chamberlin he is one of the very few designers who actually builds his own designs and then takes them for long, liveaboard cruises. As such his boats are free from extras that make them pricier or less livable. Stefano would be pretty silly to be chatting to Aussie designers, without giving Richard an email and getting to look over a couple of Euro cats that are similar in pedigree. The Eclipse would be my choice of a great Euro cat to slide around the Med - compact nature for marinas and berthing, very livable and yet ocean capable.

go look at an Eclipse!

I second this, Richard's Sagitta the 30ft sister to the Eclipse is the most fun small (any) cat I have sailed.


He uses flat composite panels a la Kelsall whom he worked with many years ago that results in very quick build times.

[Seman]

Originally Posted by rabbi

Be sure you know what you are getting into.

In the early 2000s I had a similar dream, but spent a few months reading through every building blog I could find. Blogs typically included all the ugly details and numbers, unlike today's shiny YT channels which just show edited reality to sell the drama.

Plenty (most?) projects were abandoned / sold, very few made it to the end, and even fewer went sailing fulltime as they dreamed of.
Of those who started with a partner/family almost nobody still had an intact family to go cruising with. Actually I remember only one happy family.


By the time a homebuilt boat is ready for departure the young active couple will be 5+ years older, tired and sick of boat building, and probably have created some offspring along the way.
Of course only if (and that is a big IF) the couple is still a couple. Often its no a one-man-show.


Resale value... I don't think you will create significant value by building a boat. I guess at the end most DIY projects at least in Europe sell at or below costs for material. If you do make money it will be very very little, you will likely earn less than 5 Euro per hour spent on building the boat.

If you want resale value: spend your time on the internet, scout for bargain deals of any suitable boat model, and be ready to buy one if it crosses your way.
For example I once bought a boat with completely run-down electronics, electrics, and a few other nicks and dents: Radar defunc, autopilot physically broken and also giving errors, tridata with strange readings. Batteries were new but almost dead, ...
She fell through the survey with a previous buyer. She was a complete mess and nobody wanted her. I bought her, installed all new electronics, fixed everything else and sold two years later with 30k profit.


There are IMO only two valid reasons for building a boat.
1) You -and your partner- enjoy the build more than the sailing. Nothing wrong with that, have fun!
2) You want something that just does not exist on the market. And you want it badly enough to justify years wasted in the building shed instead of being on the water.


If you don't fall into either category I'd suggest to get a production boat and just go sailing. If you don't have enough money to buy one then work overtime, or get a second job. You will still have more spare time & money than anyone building a boat.
It may not be the perfect boat you picture in your dreams but at the end it just doesn't matter.

Sunsets are the same for everyone and I have met plenty of happy folks on really shitty boats.

Rabbi is a very smart man.
We have build a boat and we 100% agree with him.
Buy second hand and look for a bargain, and fix her up. Remember, when costing a used boat, the cost of new hulls are only about 1/4 of the cost of the completed sail away project.

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by Seman

Rabbi is a very smart man.
We have build a boat and we 100% agree with him.
Buy second hand and look for a bargain, and fix her up. Remember, when costing a used boat, the cost of new hulls are only about 1/4 of the cost of the completed sail away project.

Could you please tell that my wife?!
Maybe once or twice per day would be enough to convince her in the long run.

[Stefano_90]

Originally Posted by rabbi

I don't know where you are located. I only know Europe.

Just because some yard offers professionally 36ft hull for 280.000 Euro doesn't mean much. Lets ask the yard to finish this hull to professional standards. Final cost will be >=500k Euro.
Realistic market value when finished, that is actual selling price within 6months of the boat being professionally advertised on yachtworld?
maybe 250k Euro?


Lets say you build yourself and decide to sell the finished bare hull. Do you think anyone will pay you 280k Euro? Realistically it's more like 30-50k after a few years of advertising.
My guess is more half-finished boats are scrapped than sold.

You are taking a strong position with your view, and finish an almost sensible post with a guess... Therefore your guess is as good as mine

Firstly, at the moment I cannot find a single Duflex project ( Shionning, Grainger, spirited) that is unfinished and for sale for a bargain. The only kit boat that was sold recently in Europe was this one: https://www.devalk.nl/en/yachtbroker...RROW-1200.html

It was completely self built, and sold for 225.000 Eur after 5 years of cruising( in EU you must wait 5 years before selling it if self built) and it was a very basic fitout.

Secondly, you don't know anything about my work experience and skills.. I could tell you that I am a mechanical engineer with a background in composites but I doubt you are interested.

The thing is, as many have already pointed out, building the hull is the easy part, so why the heck should I buy a wreck of a boat and concentrate on the hard part of the refit?? I would rather do the easy part and hire a professional for the hard one!

For the rest, thanks to everyone for the comments, (good and bad). I have enough info to make my own decision now, so I will leave the thread to the keyboard vigilantes.

[rabbi]

My guesses are just that. Nobody knows such things for fact. But my guesses are backed by ~13 years of watching and participating in the cat market in the 35-42ft range as a buyer (4x) and seller (3x). I have a good feeling for the market.

I don't know anything about your skills. But your skills don't make a huge difference. You can produce an extremely nice, light, solid and just perfect one-off cat. Nobody will notice. The vast majority of buyers will just scroll past such listing. The market outside the big names is a tiny niche in Europe.

Right now in this moment a few hundred people are looking for a Lagoon, FP, Leopard in the 36-40ft range only in Europe.
How many are looking for a DIY one-off in a similar price range? You can count them on one hand.


Just my own personal guess? Very easy to confirm:
Grab some Lagoon 380 photos off the internet and create a fake listing on a FSBO website. Average age and condition at a reasonable price. The do the same for your DIY one-off, price it based on material plus realistic labour hours (priced based on your hourly overtime income). Count the serious inquiries over the first month.
I have done exactly that several years ago. Guess what: I sold my building plans to some other poor soul

Of course you can be lucky and find that one unicorn buyer who wants exactly your boat and is ready to pay your price.
But that is just pure luck and nothing else. Repeat this three times (like I did with my production cats) and you have a point.


But hey, its your life. Good luck with your boat building.

[smj]

Originally Posted by rabbi

My guesses are just that. Nobody knows such things for fact. But my guesses are backed by ~13 years of watching and participating in the cat market in the 35-42ft range as a buyer (4x) and seller (3x). I have a good feeling for the market.

I don't know anything about your skills. But your skills don't make a huge difference. You can produce an extremely nice, light, solid and just perfect one-off cat. Nobody will notice. The vast majority of buyers will just scroll past such listing. The market outside the big names is a tiny niche in Europe.

Right now in this moment a few hundred people are looking for a Lagoon, FP, Leopard in the 36-40ft range only in Europe.
How many are looking for a DIY one-off in a similar price range? You can count them on one hand.


Just my own personal guess? Very easy to confirm:
Grab some Lagoon 380 photos off the internet and create a fake listing on a FSBO website. Average age and condition at a reasonable price. The do the same for your DIY one-off, price it based on material plus realistic labour hours (priced based on your hourly overtime income). Count the serious inquiries over the first month.
I have done exactly that several years ago. Guess what: I sold my building plans to some other poor soul

Of course you can be lucky and find that one unicorn buyer who wants exactly your boat and is ready to pay your price.
But that is just pure luck and nothing else. Repeat this three times (like I did with my production cats) and you have a point.


But hey, its your life. Good luck with your boat building.

Like you we’ve owned numerous cats and have had our eye on the US market for 30 years. What you say is correct. One thing to stress is that many times a custom/home built cat will be way better built than a production model, but nowadays that ain’t saying much. Of course that’s just my opinion

[Simi 60]

Personally I don't think the boat you propose is big enough for live aboard.
Not necessarily space, but payload.
Full time cruisers carry a lot of gear
The big boats carry it so much better and more.

From decades on the water, much of it on catamarans it's the smaller boats that generally spend their time going from marina to marina for power, water, food, fuel etc as they simply don't have the displacement to carry months worth of supplies and refrigeration for it and still actually sail.
You can't carry a house on a small platform.

Amazed at the amount of them we see motoring everywhere or at best, headsail and motor.
All running to the next marina
Only the bigger boats seem to sail and stay out for extended periods.

[Fore and Aft]

Stefano 90 the home built boats I survey that get a good price have a very high standard of finish. I am talking fairing inside lockers and then spray painting, absolute perfect finishes in the bilges lockers and hidden areas, no imperfections anywhere. Wiring that could be in an aircraft, upholstery from a high end craftsman, every system mounted and looking like it has come from a manufacturers advertisement. One yacht even had a motif etched into every window. One thing all these home built boats had in common was an owner who had total disregard for the hours involved and were more interested in perfection. Thinking about it I don't think any of these perfect boats were ever much used by their builders. I can think of two that virtually sat in the marina unused but much polished until the owner decided to sell them.
Cheers

[Stefano_90]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Personally I don't think the boat you propose is big enough for live aboard.
Not necessarily space, but payload.
Full time cruisers carry a lot of gear
The big boats carry it so much better and more.

From decades on the water, much of it on catamarans it's the smaller boats that generally spend their time going from marina to marina for power, water, food, fuel etc as they simply don't have the displacement to carry months worth of supplies and refrigeration for it and still actually sail.
You can't carry a house on a small platform.

Amazed at the amount of them we see motoring everywhere or at best, headsail and motor.
All running to the next marina
Only the bigger boats seem to sail and stay out for extended periods.

I understand your points of view... Just let me say a couple things:

- We have a camper, that is a self converted WV crafter, 7m long, 1.8m wide. The payload is 400kg including water and fuel. We have successfully toured around Europe with extended periods of wild camping carrying sport equipment. Of course water is the limiting factor.
Now, to me moving on an 11m X 6.2m platform, with a payload of 1500Kg looks like a more than big enough platform.
I understand there will be a requirement to carry more water in order not to have to run to the marina. A small water maker will help keep weights down.

-I doubt I would be spending much time motoring with a boat thats designed as a performance cruiser. Maybe the cats you see motoring around are the condomarans ( heavy displacement and all the luxury). Nothing wrong with that, just two different types of boats..

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by Stefano_90

I understand there will be a requirement to carry more water in order not to have to run to the marina. A small water maker will help keep weights down.

-I doubt I would be spending much time motoring with a boat thats designed as a performance cruiser. Maybe the cats you see motoring around are the condomarans ( heavy displacement and all the luxury). Nothing wrong with that, just two different types of boats..

You don't have to visit marinas to fill up with water, there are plenty of quays and small villages with public taps. There are also some interesting developments in towed and solar water makers that maybe worth investigating if it becomes an issue.


Smaller boats, cats especially tend to motor much less than bigger boats.

[CabrillosGhost]

I don't have a tremendous amount of practical advice to offer in the way of constructing a kit cat, passing interest in that sort of enterprise lasted only a couple of weeks some years back when a number of hull molds came up for sale on craigslist in the San Francisco Bay Area.

Your mention of being based in Slovenia, however, really interests me considering how impressive the shipbuilding industry is in Trieste along the waterfront. Are there many builders working in fiberglass there? Up in Sausalito here, there's a lot of energy and interest in things like constructing new wooden nordic folk boats, traditional arts and crafts that don't as much contribute to industry as to directing energy waste at something that doesn't get in the way of the going concerns in the yacht business.

Trieste is a much more practical city. I'd say it's a better place with better people than San Francisco, with all of the important elements that once held an appeal for me in San Francisco.

How's your Italian? Do you know anyone working in a Fincantieri yard? Walking around those yards and meeting people, getting some beers in a tavern and talking to locals might be just the thing. I found the Venetian dialect close enough to Spanish to get by with additional knowledge of Latin and first language English. Land isn't overpriced, space in a yard might be easy to find, talent too, it might not be too difficult to apprentice at some critical skills.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Stefano_90

.

-I doubt I would be spending much time motoring with a boat thats designed as a performance cruiser.
..

You will to if you want to carry much in the way of "stuff" on short hulls
It's performance because it is light and empty, the only thing that makes it perform is sails and skills.

Maybe the cats you see motoring around are the condomarans ( heavy displacement and all the luxury). Nothing wrong with that, just two different types of boats

Nah, I see what were once performance boats bought and turned into cruising homes.
The smaller ones suffer terribly.

The ones that are up around 50 ft don't suffer as much but still aren't the fine sailing machines they once were and designed to be.

If they are actual cruising boats they are designed to carry a decent payload but, they generally still motor more than they care to admit but at least carry the load well and when the breeze is up still do reasonable stress free miles.

I have owned and built cats, I have worked on and sailed some very fast ones, but none of them got faster once the cruising gear got added.
Why do you think step extensions and even cutting hulls and adding several feet into the hull is a thing?

If the owners are serious, they eventually decide to build or buy again, but bigger , longer load carrying hulls with similar accom and "stuff" to what they had.

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

Stefano 90 the home built boats I survey that get a good price have a very high standard of finish. I am talking fairing inside lockers and then spray painting, absolute perfect finishes in the bilges lockers and hidden areas, no imperfections anywhere. Wiring that could be in an aircraft, upholstery from a high end craftsman, every system mounted and looking like it has come from a manufacturers advertisement. One yacht even had a motif etched into every window. One thing all these home built boats had in common was an owner who had total disregard for the hours involved and were more interested in perfection. Thinking about it I don't think any of these perfect boats were ever much used by their builders. I can think of two that virtually sat in the marina unused but much polished until the owner decided to sell them.
Cheers

I'd be interested to know the effective hourly pay for someone who sells such a testament of perfection.

After all the hours spent planning, buying things, surfing the web for the tools. Chatting about the perfect painting procedure before doing test runs and then actually starting to paint. Including re-doing jobs that were not perfect.


So what about the more "average" DIY boats, thiose that are built & used? How long do they stay on the market, and do the final selling prices even cover cost of materials?

[catsketcher]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

You will to if you want to carry much in the way of "stuff" on short hulls
It's performance because it is light and empty, the only thing that makes it perform is sails and skills.



Nah, I see what were once performance boats bought and turned into cruising homes.
The smaller ones suffer terribly.

The ones that are up around 50 ft don't suffer as much but still aren't the fine sailing machines they once were and designed to be.

If they are actual cruising boats they are designed to carry a decent payload but, they generally still motor more than they care to admit but at least carry the load well and when the breeze is up still do reasonable stress free miles.

I have owned and built cats, I have worked on and sailed some very fast ones, but none of them got faster once the cruising gear got added.
Why do you think step extensions and even cutting hulls and adding several feet into the hull is a thing?

If the owners are serious, they eventually decide to build or buy again, but bigger , longer load carrying hulls with similar accom and "stuff" to what they had.

I don't completely agree. It depends on what you call essential. I am happy with my 38 footer and it carries everything I want for liveaboard life, kayaks, all tools needed for rebuild, 400 litres of water and stores. Just one thing though, she is simple inside and does not have a luxurious interior. I don't want one, don't want to build one, or pay for one and don't want to compromise the sailing performance of the boat by adding one. A sistership to our boat floated about 8cm lower because of her fitout - that is about how much we go down when loaded. So ditch the fairing inside and be flexible. Remember that cruising is about learning what you don't need and getting in touch with the important things. If consumerism followed me out to sea sailing would lose lots of its appeal. Get rid of modern inconveniences and sail small. (that being said we do take a lot of stuff - breadmakers etc)

I have one important piece of advice to potential cat owners. If you buy an empty cat and it floats on its lines, walk away. If sisterships are all dragging transoms around don't build it. Designers are notoriously optimistic about sailing weights. An acquaintance built a Mystery Cove 38 Mk1. It had a displacement of (about 3700 kg) less than my 38 footer yet had more interior volume (which gets filled with stuff). The designer then designed the Mk 2 with about 5500 kg. That was how much the hulls were underdone at first. Cruising cats should float about 5-10cm (depending on size) high for daysailing. That transom and bridgedeck should be up there and waggling free. As Simi said, getting the weight study wrong is a massive problem that is almost unfixable. Tf a boat launching party has the boat floating on its marks then the owner should be crying. It's gotta float high. But it is an owner problem too.

At Montys I met a guy who was putting new hulls in his 13.5 metre cruising cat, whole new cedar structures under the existing hulls. I was flummoxed as two almost identical sisterships were banging around the Pacific with families/couples on board who loved them. It was also a bigger sistership to my boat that floated high but the owner had gone silly. He had copper hot water tanks in the aft beam, every single tool used to build the boat on board, he even had a real crow's nest with motor controls up the mast. He just seemed to bung everything on board. But he hadn't been honest about the weight he wanted when talking with the designer. He told me that he was bringing only "what he would need" but his needs were so incredible they had no relation to mine.

Buy/build a boat that floats high when empty. Work out your immersion rate, you can work out how much you can carry. For us it is over 1000kg over day sailing which is more than ample. But ensure you do understand a little about naval architecture before you buy/build.

cheers

Phil

[Fore and Aft]

Catsketcher that advice can also be said about monohulls. The lighter they are the better they sail. I remember a couple who circumnavigated with a steel yacht being surprised how quick she sailed without all their gear onboard. I never got to discuss with them if it was worth sailing slower in return for having all their comforts and a mountain of spares onboard.
Rabbi with some of those owners perfection transcends any thought of the hours involved or a monetary return.
As for DIY boats, cats have a better return on hours involved and most recover there material costs and some of their labour. Monos are different and you might be lucky to recover your material cost. Usually it requires a certain buyer for a home built boat and sometimes they can stay on the market for a long time.
Cheers