Catamaran live-aboard advice

[smj]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Looking at Bobs build, it’s no rocket science, it’s spaceship science
Holy cow, I am a handymen and are quite skilled in cfk, engine…but I wouldn‘t do it in a million years…so many things can go wrong and building that cat straight is the major challenge…plus epoxy is very unhealthy. Outfitting a ready made hull with top yes.
Forget 36ft, you are constantly overloaded as liveabord which means it sails bad, permanent bridge deck slamming…700kg personal belongings is just the tools and spares you need and I carry…add another 400kg for food+ dingy with everything 100kg, Davits with proper solar 150kg min+….

I was at the same point, from space a 35ft cat would do it for me but if you lifeaboard and do serious bluewater cruising 38ft is absolute minimum absolutely everybody skilled advised that , better 40ft. Major point Payload and you want/need min 2,5t as you should Max use 80% of it (means 2t real load with everything) with 2 persons and occasionally 4-6persons. The slimmer the hulls the less payload eg a 40ft Lavezzi has 2,7t, the comparable Lagoon 400 3,8t. Guess who sails well and who not…
Hobby horsing, behavior in the waves, bridge deck slamming are additional major points. So in the end after crewing and testing on different 35 and 36ft I ended up buying a 40ft FP Lavezzi and yes all advisors were right about the major points.

Whatever you do don’t tell the owners of the thousands of Prout 37’ Snowgoose that have crossed oceans that they are doing it wrong. Let alone the owners of the 30’ Iroquois or 26’ Heavenly Twins that have circumnavigated. And let’s not forget all the smaller Wharrams......

[GRIT]

Originally Posted by smj

Whatever you do don’t tell the owners of the thousands of Prout 37’ Snowgoose that have crossed oceans that they are doing it wrong. Let alone the owners of the 30’ Iroquois or 26’ Heavenly Twins that have circumnavigated. And let’s not forget all the smaller Wharrams......

Agreed.

I don't know why folks have this notion that there's a magic length of boat that one "must" have to cruise, or cross oceans.

Boats are like bank accounts, the bigger they are, the more comfortable you'll be. But lots of folks with small boats and small bank accounts have done major trips.

My first boat was a 35 footer (which lots of folks thought was big back then), which I single handed to the Bahamas each fall, and to Canada each spring. I then took it to Trinidad with my future wife, and it worked a treat. We never really lacked for much, but we both caught "two footitis", and bought a 4 foot longer boat to rebuild, and cruise with.

As one gets older, and hopefully more wealthy, our tastes start to drift to more comfort; which is what you find in larger boats.

I'm not sure what the minimum length of boat is for "proper" cruising, but I've seen a Bruce Bingham 20 footer, cruising the Caribbean, and they seemed quite happy to be there. Friends (a family of 4) of ours crossed from Cape Verde to Barbados in a 26 foot converted lifeboat. Other friends, a young couple, also crossed the Atlantic from the Canaries in a 26 foot production boat. Both these boats were liveaboards, not just someone pulling a stunt for the record books or some such thing.

When we were cruising in our S&S 35, we went aboard a Tobago 35, and thought it was palatial. Both boats had similar load carrying characteristics, and we'd have been very happy to have been able to afford such a boat for cruising.

All that to say... I think it's silly to say this person or that person "can't" cruise in a certain size of boat. Just because you've heard you "need" 2 tonnes of "stuff" aboard, doesn't mean you can't cruise with much less. We had about 500kg of stuff on our 35 foot cruising boat. Including fuel and water.

Our 35 footer had 80l (20 gallons) of water, and 60l (15 gallons) of fuel. We had minimal spare parts for the engine (it was a sailboat after all), and not much spares for rigging, other than 100 feet of line to act as a spare halyard, or sheet, or dockline, or whatever emergency needed curing.

Trinidad's not an offshore run, or doesn't need to be, but most boats going at the same time as we were going, were much better equipped, and usually larger. They also said "you can't" to us.

I've discovered that "you can't" actually means "I can't imagine".

Go in what you can afford, and grab life by the horns.

YOU CERTAINLY CAN!

Cheers.
Paul.

[smj]

Originally Posted by GRIT

Agreed.



I don't know why folks have this notion that there's a magic length of boat that one "must" have to cruise, or cross oceans.



Boats are like bank accounts, the bigger they are, the more comfortable you'll be. But lots of folks with small boats and small bank accounts have done major trips.



My first boat was a 35 footer (which lots of folks thought was big back then), which I single handed to the Bahamas each fall, and to Canada each spring. I then took it to Trinidad with my future wife, and it worked a treat. We never really lacked for much, but we both caught "two footitis", and bought a 4 foot longer boat to rebuild, and cruise with.



As one gets older, and hopefully more wealthy, our tastes start to drift to more comfort; which is what you find in larger boats.



I'm not sure what the minimum length of boat is for "proper" cruising, but I've seen a Bruce Bingham 20 footer, cruising the Caribbean, and they seemed quite happy to be there. Friends (a family of 4) of ours crossed from Cape Verde to Barbados in a 26 foot converted lifeboat. Other friends, a young couple, also crossed the Atlantic from the Canaries in a 26 foot production boat. Both these boats were liveaboards, not just someone pulling a stunt for the record books or some such thing.



When we were cruising in our S&S 35, we went aboard a Tobago 35, and thought it was palatial. Both boats had similar load carrying characteristics, and we'd have been very happy to have been able to afford such a boat for cruising.



All that to say... I think it's silly to say this person or that person "can't" cruise in a certain size of boat. Just because you've heard you "need" 2 tonnes of "stuff" aboard, doesn't mean you can't cruise with much less. We had about 500kg of stuff on our 35 foot cruising boat. Including fuel and water.



Our 35 footer had 80l (20 gallons) of water, and 60l (15 gallons) of fuel. We had minimal spare parts for the engine (it was a sailboat after all), and not much spares for rigging, other than 100 feet of line to act as a spare halyard, or sheet, or dockline, or whatever emergency needed curing.



Trinidad's not an offshore run, or doesn't need to be, but most boats going at the same time as we were going, were much better equipped, and usually larger. They also said "you can't" to us.



I've discovered that "you can't" actually means "I can't imagine".



Go in what you can afford, and grab life by the horns.



YOU CERTAINLY CAN!



Cheers.

Paul.

Even though your 35 footer only had a 20 gallon water tank, I’m guessing you did fine without a water maker?

[GRIT]

That's right, no watermaker.

We swam a lot, otherwise, we stank a lot. Most of the cruiser's we knew did the same. This was back in the 90's. Not many small boats had watermakers back then. We did catch some water with the solar panels though; which doubled as a cockpit shade.

We now have 5 times the tankage, AND a watermaker. I've gotten weak!

Cheers.
Paul.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by smj

Whatever you do don’t tell the owners of the thousands of Prout 37’ Snowgoose that have crossed oceans that they are doing it wrong. Let alone the owners of the 30’ Iroquois or 26’ Heavenly Twins that have circumnavigated. And let’s not forget all the smaller Wharrams......

None of those designs ever sailed or performed very well from day 1 so overloading probably wouldn't make much difference

Overloading an actual performance boat will be noticed.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by smj

Whatever you do don’t tell the owners of the thousands of Prout 37’ Snowgoose that have crossed oceans that they are doing it wrong. Let alone the owners of the 30’ Iroquois or 26’ Heavenly Twins that have circumnavigated. And let’s not forget all the smaller Wharrams......

There are even homemade 6ft rowing boats crossing the ocean…can you do it? Yes you can….is it safe, by far NO.
Both 26‘ and 30‘ you mentioned are coastal catamarans, not meant, constructed and able to withstand the offshore forces and simply don‘t have enough payload to carry enough diesel and water in case your watermaker breaks…
Yes people done it and were lucky, is it safe? Again certainly no.
The owner of Gemini done a crossing with a 105 and afterwards he was ask how it was he said never again….

Due to my research the smallest cat with a Cat A Certification means safe for offshore is the FP Mahe 36ft which hardly passed it. If you know smaller, happy to learn/discover.
Yes 37‘ snowgoose is capable of doing it but the permanent slamming of the bridgedeck in already medium waves is for masochists, enjoyable is something else…
We are talking about cats, not monos which is a totally different.

[catsketcher]

I like the point about "I can't imagine" it is a really good one.

For me "I can't imagine" affording a large displacement twin diesel 42-45ft cat. It would ruin me financially to keep her running. What the OP needs to do is have chats with people and see who he feels is a good fit for him. Maybe my two sets of friends who cruised a Crowther 10 and Rogers 10 around the world and lived on them for years? Then you can have a 10 metre cat. They loved their boats and had a lovely lifestyle and did some serious sailing stuff - upwind in the Red Sea, sailing around Ireland, the long voyage from Panama. Too frugal for the OP, then go bigger. Or read Rory McDougall who circumnavigated in a 23ft Wharram.

The square cube rule hits a sailor financially. Our 38ft rig cost $6000 because it is modest, a friends rig for his larger displacement cat, taller mast 40 footer cost $16000 (we both put them together ourselves but I didn't have a boom in the kit). The loads, and the cost of items goes up dramatically as you increase size. Getting big can get scary expensive with rigging/winches/blocks/sails/anchor gear/ropes etc. For many the cost is a real problem and carrying less is very worthwhile.

It is pretty silly to say "You can't" just because one individual found they couldn't fit all their necessaries, when there is abundant evidence from other sailors and secondhand boats that you can. My wife and I cruised a 31ft tri with very little payload and had a great time. We adjusted. Our modest 38 footer is well over specced for us. Many people can and many people can't. Viva la difference.

cheers

Phil

[smj]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

There are even homemade 6ft rowing boats crossing the ocean…can you do it? Yes you can….is it safe, by far NO.

Both 26‘ and 30‘ you mentioned are coastal catamarans, not meant, constructed and able to withstand the offshore forces and simply don‘t have enough payload to carry enough diesel and water in case your watermaker breaks…

Yes people done it and were lucky, is it safe? Again certainly no.

The owner of Gemini done a crossing with a 105 and afterwards he was ask how it was he said never again….



Due to my research the smallest cat with a Cat A Certification means safe for offshore is the FP Mahe 36ft which hardly passed it. If you know smaller, happy to learn/discover.

Yes 37‘ snowgoose is capable of doing it but the permanent slamming of the bridgedeck in already medium waves is for masochists, enjoyable is something else…

We are talking about cats, not monos which is a totally different.

The Snowgoose 37 probably has more safely traveled bluewater miles under their keels than any other sailboat, monohull or multihull.
Both the Heavenly Twins 26 and Iroquois 30 did their circumnavigations before water makers were available or used by pleasure craft.
The owner of a Gemini that did the crossing and made that statement was the owner of the Gemini company.
If you’re putting any faith in a cat being seaworthy because it’s a category A certified then this goes along with the rest of your post, uninformed.
And by the way, your Lavezzi doesn’t meet your rule about 40’ cats being the smallest that are seaworthy because your Lavezzi is only 39’ long.

[tcpbob]

I've discovered that "you can't" actually means "I can't imagine".

good words... so true. i have my opinion of what makes most sense to build based on material costs, effort etc but the world has been circumnavigated in boats the size of a large bath tub successfully. not that i would want to... well, maybe 50 years ago...


but i am not daunted by size of a project. sometimes ya just have to have faith that you'll work it out on the way. like asking the guy who jumped out a window, "how are you doing?" and he says, "ok so far". i know, very old joke but somehow applicable to boat building.


and btw, no way could i have bought a cat equal to mine for same or less than cost of build. dream on. one would have to pick a really poor design and/or execute a poor build to make that true.



and one more argumentative point to make, 4 stroke outboards work very well on a good performing cat. that saves money (about 50%), build time, weight (about 50 kg each side as opposed to 150kg saildrive) and when sailing they are tucked away.



but there are different answers to many questions.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by GRIT

Agreed.

I don't know why folks have this notion that there's a magic length of boat that one "must" have to cruise, or cross oceans.

Boats are like bank accounts, the bigger they are, the more comfortable you'll be. But lots of folks with small boats and small bank accounts have done major trips.

My first boat was a 35 footer (which lots of folks thought was big back then), which I single handed to the Bahamas each fall, and to Canada each spring. I then took it to Trinidad with my future wife, and it worked a treat. We never really lacked for much, but we both caught "two footitis", and bought a 4 foot longer boat to rebuild, and cruise with.

As one gets older, and hopefully more wealthy, our tastes start to drift to more comfort; which is what you find in larger boats.

I'm not sure what the minimum length of boat is for "proper" cruising, but I've seen a Bruce Bingham 20 footer, cruising the Caribbean, and they seemed quite happy to be there. Friends (a family of 4) of ours crossed from Cape Verde to Barbados in a 26 foot converted lifeboat. Other friends, a young couple, also crossed the Atlantic from the Canaries in a 26 foot production boat. Both these boats were liveaboards, not just someone pulling a stunt for the record books or some such thing.

When we were cruising in our S&S 35, we went aboard a Tobago 35, and thought it was palatial. Both boats had similar load carrying characteristics, and we'd have been very happy to have been able to afford such a boat for cruising.

All that to say... I think it's silly to say this person or that person "can't" cruise in a certain size of boat. Just because you've heard you "need" 2 tonnes of "stuff" aboard, doesn't mean you can't cruise with much less. We had about 500kg of stuff on our 35 foot cruising boat. Including fuel and water.

Our 35 footer had 80l (20 gallons) of water, and 60l (15 gallons) of fuel. We had minimal spare parts for the engine (it was a sailboat after all), and not much spares for rigging, other than 100 feet of line to act as a spare halyard, or sheet, or dockline, or whatever emergency needed curing.

Trinidad's not an offshore run, or doesn't need to be, but most boats going at the same time as we were going, were much better equipped, and usually larger. They also said "you can't" to us.

I've discovered that "you can't" actually means "I can't imagine".

Go in what you can afford, and grab life by the horns.

YOU CERTAINLY CAN!

Cheers.
Paul.

Paul we are talking cat not monos.
A crushing mono overload it even with 150% you just paint the waterline new, suffer 0.2kn less speed, otherwise you are good if it’s a good bluewater one and you didn‘t screw up the balance completely. And yes a 26ft mono can have enough load capacity if constructed properly like the lifeboat you mentioned.

A cat doesn‘t matter if a outremer or an Iroquai or whatever exceed its real payload by more then 50% and its unsailable and simply doesn‘t work anymore burring the bows in the waves constantly. Totally different cup of tea. And I tried this with a FP 35ft Tobago as I really like it, it would be enough space and I could get one in an exceptional condition. I didn’t believe so my surveyor organized to overload it and show me. It’s real payload is somewhere at 900kg, after 1400kg load it buried the bows in even 1.5m waves and was hardly controllable. With 900kg loaded it significantly slowed down to around 5kn in 2,5-3m waves start again to burry the bows in the waves, even with 400kg payload the same when 3,5m and bigger, it reached its limits as just not enough bridgedeck clearance for bigger waves…

And yes you can do it, is it safe no.
Sure you can save on spares but then you get stuck for months on remote islands and pay your ass off for spares you need. And why do you go small, to safe money…
Your 80l of water, can you do a 40days crossing instead of 20days when a lot goes wrong? Sure no.

If you wanna do serious blue water cruising for 2 occasionally 4 persons for long passages you need min 1,5t of payload to have enough diesel, water, food, spares, tools, 300kg for 4 people, security equipment (offshore liferaft for 6 is easy 45kg), 60kg dingy with everything, 100kg Davits with all the solar panels….it adds up quickly.
All still minimum but a safe amount with some backup…and this requires min a 36ft cat to carry this load.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by smj

The Snowgoose 37 probably has more safely traveled bluewater miles under their keels than any other sailboat, monohull or multihull.
Both the Heavenly Twins 26 and Iroquois 30 did their circumnavigations before water makers were available or used by pleasure craft.
The owner of a Gemini that did the crossing and made that statement was the owner of the Gemini company.
If you’re putting any faith in a cat being seaworthy because it’s a category A certified then this goes along with the rest of your post, uninformed.
And by the way, your Lavezzi doesn’t meet your rule about 40’ cats being the smallest that are seaworthy because your Lavezzi is only 39’ long.

Said minimum 38ft and I just took that rule over from many I talked too.
Lavezzi is exactly 11,92cm measured with a certified equipment, so correct 39ft and I am happy that's the case... Habour fees are cheaper below 12m...
Put all the tools needed on a list, had most anyway in my workshop (learned from racing what is really needed) and weight them=>320kg.
Spares the classics 300kg and I have the luck of 2 brand new Volvo D2-50 and 130S saildrives (+150kg from old 30hp), basically the whole engine rooms are new so I can go light and bare minimum here. So 1,7t payload reached, 1t left. 4 people for long passage with luggage 400kg, 400kg food+drinks,100kg Dingy+15hp engine, SUP/Kites+board 100kg and 2,7t reached... Adds up quick

[Fore and Aft]

CaptainRivet I can't help but think that BS about carrying spares or being stuck on a remote island until they arrive has gone the same way long keels and ketch rigs have. I survey boats that are weighed down with everything from hoses, plywood to head gaskets etc. I also survey plenty of cruisers that have no spares beyond a few fuses, diesel filters and fan belts. Unless your mast breaks, your keel or rudder falls off there is no reason why you cannot sail to the nearest biggest city and either Fedex the parts or buy local. A quick google shows Fedex services 220 territories and countries. As for saving money, is it prudent to have thousands of dollars of spares onboard and never need them?
To show how ridiculous this carrying spares is, yesterday I surveyed a 40 foot cat and they were looking for their spare prop. The owner knew it was onboard but which locker and believe me there was a ton of lockers and they could have fitted on a marine store with all their spares.
Talk about thread drift.
Cheers

[GRIT]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Paul we are talking cat not monos.
A crushing mono overload it even with 150% you just paint the waterline new, suffer 0.2kn less speed, otherwise you are good if it’s a good bluewater one and you didn‘t screw up the balance completely. And yes a 26ft mono can have enough load capacity if constructed properly like the lifeboat you mentioned.

A cat doesn‘t matter if a outremer or an Iroquai or whatever exceed its real payload by more then 50% and its unsailable and simply doesn‘t work anymore burring the bows in the waves constantly. Totally different cup of tea. And I tried this with a FP 35ft Tobago as I really like it, it would be enough space and I could get one in an exceptional condition. I didn’t believe so my surveyor organized to overload it and show me. It’s real payload is somewhere at 900kg, after 1400kg load it buried the bows in even 1.5m waves and was hardly controllable. With 900kg loaded it significantly slowed down to around 5kn in 2,5-3m waves start again to burry the bows in the waves, even with 400kg payload the same when 3,5m and bigger, it reached its limits as just not enough bridgedeck clearance for bigger waves…

And yes you can do it, is it safe no.
Sure you can save on spares but then you get stuck for months on remote islands and pay your ass off for spares you need. And why do you go small, to safe money…
Your 80l of water, can you do a 40days crossing instead of 20days when a lot goes wrong? Sure no.

If you wanna do serious blue water cruising for 2 occasionally 4 persons for long passages you need min 1,5t of payload to have enough diesel, water, food, spares, tools, 300kg for 4 people, security equipment (offshore liferaft for 6 is easy 45kg), 60kg dingy with everything, 100kg Davits with all the solar panels….it adds up quickly.
All still minimum but a safe amount with some backup…and this requires min a 36ft cat to carry this load.

Thanks for your comments. I guess I just don't understand where the 1.5 tonnes comes in as a "standard" as you suggest.

Please note, one must load a boat properly, considering performance. If it's all put in the bows, it's likely to handle badly... as an example. It seems your surveyor was trying to prove a point, so may have intentionally loaded the boat accordingly. I could load our 50 foot cat in such a way as to make her noticeably less agile too.

As to load:

If I use our boat as an example, which has far more tankage than necessary, and extra heavy ground tackle.

150 kg dinghy/engine/fuel and spare fuel, life vests and bailer.
400kg water in two tanks, but second tank is just for offshore (safety).
Watermaker, 30kg
Fuel: 200l day-tanks, 550l "offshore" tanks that my wife wanted.
60kg anchor, 180kg chain, Spare 50kg anchor, spare rode 30kg, spare anchor 30kg, spare rode 40kg.

Spare parts and tools 100kg. (I do have a spare engine after all)

Misc stuff such as dishes, bedsheets, clothes and such, I'll guess 100kg. 1920kg all up, and about 1500kg if you take away the surplus fuel/water. Which falls right on your 1.5 tonnes. But it's a 50 foot cat.

That's on a 50 foot cat sailed by a couple who can afford some comfort.

On a 35 foot cat, sailed by someone with less disposable income (Like my wife and I, 20 years ago)

The fuel, dinghy, anchor rodes and water would be less. Say 200l fuel, which is generous, 25kg anchor, 55kg chain and rode (30m at 1.45kg/m) spare anchor and mostly rope rode, 45kg. Dinghy 90kg incl engine and fuel. (our rowing dinghy weighed 33kg) , 200kg water, 30kg watermaker, 100 kg misc stuff, and another 100kg just to be nice for extra food or whatever. 55kg solar and accessories. 100 kg lead batteries.

That's 990kg. (I'm using real world water volume from our last boat, and anchor sizes one larger than manufacture's recommended size for a 35 foot cat in greater than 50 knots of wind) I'm also being generous with the water and fuel, which on my imaginary 35 foot catamaran would be halved. bringing the total to 800kg.

I realize those numbers could be higher, but they could also be lower too. Less fuel and water, rowing dinghy, less solar, and fewer electrical items requires less energy, and smaller batteries.

I'm not disrespecting your post, but I am questioning if my younger self would need so much "stuff" as to use 1.5 tonnes of buoyancy. I certainly didn't have that on our S&S 35. If a 20 day passage turns to 40 days, then you'll have to scrimp on showers. Our S&S had 80l of water, but I wasn't suggesting that would be suitable for offshore. You can simply add a 2kg bladder tank to the list of spares, and fill it when you're going offshore. 100l of water could last two people for nearly a month if necessary. Same goes for fuel.

We can't plan for every possible issue; one must eventually lose sight of the shore to embrace the freedom of the sea. It often seems that those folks who think one needs "more", started their cruising later in life. Those who start in their 20's may better remember what it's like to cruise "without".

Someone "up thread" mentioned that we used to go cruising and just deal with what came. I agree with that; though it's less prevalent today.

My opinion is that we all have different ideas of how much "safety" we need to accomplish a passage. My younger self was happy with much less than my present self. I shudder to think what I'll think I need in 20 years time.

Cheers, and safe passages.

Paul.

[GRIT]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Said minimum 38ft and I just took that rule over from many I talked too.
Lavezzi is exactly 11,92cm measured with a certified equipment, so correct 39ft and I am happy that's the case... Habour fees are cheaper below 12m...
Put all the tools needed on a list, had most anyway in my workshop (learned from racing what is really needed) and weight them=>320kg.
Spares the classics 300kg and I have the luck of 2 brand new Volvo D2-50 and 130S saildrives (+150kg from old 30hp), basically the whole engine rooms are new so I can go light and bare minimum here. So 1,7t payload reached, 1t left. 4 people for long passage with luggage 400kg, 400kg food+drinks,100kg Dingy+15hp engine, SUP/Kites+board 100kg and 2,7t reached... Adds up quick

320kg tools? 400 kg food and drinks? Wow, I want to cruise with you! I could save even more weight by just borrowing stuff!

Your not sacrificing much with those numbers. I submit that the PO didn't ask what he needed for luxe cruising, he seemed to be going in the other direction.
In any case. Horses for courses. I hope we see you "out there".

Cheers.
Paul.

[Fore and Aft]

Grit that is what I was joking about with my client yesterday. You just look for the floating chandlery in the anchorage and negotiate to buy the spares you need.
Cheers