Catamaran live-aboard advice

[GRIT]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

Grit that is what I was joking about with my client yesterday. You just look for the floating chandlery in the anchorage and negotiate to buy the spares you need.
Cheers

HAHA, yes indeed. The full keeled boats are usually the best ones to visit in such a situation.

I started writing my post 73 before you posted post 72, but it took me a long time to try to get my idea across. Once I posted, I saw your post, and realized I could have simply deleted my post! (How many times have I said "post"?)

You have to give me credit though: I said in 800 words, what took you 200. You'd think I worked for the Gum'mint!

Cheers.
Paul.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by GRIT

320kg tools? 400 kg food and drinks? Wow, I want to cruise with you! I could save even more weight by just borrowing stuff!

Your not sacrificing much with those numbers. I submit that the PO didn't ask what he needed for luxe cruising, he seemed to be going in the other direction.
In any case. Horses for courses. I hope we see you "out there".

Cheers.
Paul.

That's us and a hell of a lot more again but we never go into marinas and rarely go to the mainland
No cars, no shops, need to carry the gear and, it does get used.

But, we came to the realisation that a performance multi was not for us unless we got up around 60ft so got the boat to carry the gear without loss of performance so as to allow us to stay out indefinitely

Who would have realised how good that can be (-;

[smj]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Said minimum 38ft and I just took that rule over from many I talked too.
Lavezzi is exactly 11,92cm measured with a certified equipment, so correct 39ft and I am happy that's the case... Habour fees are cheaper below 12m...
Put all the tools needed on a list, had most anyway in my workshop (learned from racing what is really needed) and weight them=>320kg.
Spares the classics 300kg and I have the luck of 2 brand new Volvo D2-50 and 130S saildrives (+150kg from old 30hp), basically the whole engine rooms are new so I can go light and bare minimum here. So 1,7t payload reached, 1t left. 4 people for long passage with luggage 400kg, 400kg food+drinks,100kg Dingy+15hp engine, SUP/Kites+board 100kg and 2,7t reached... Adds up quick

My engines weigh 42kg so I could carry 2 of those as spares and forgo the 320kg of tools? [emoji23].

[GRIT]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

That's us and a hell of a lot more again but we never go into marinas and rarely go to the mainland
No cars, no shops, need to carry the gear and, it does get used.

But, we came to the realisation that a performance multi was not for us unless we got up around 60ft so got the boat to carry the gear without loss of performance so as to allow us to stay out indefinitely

Who would have realised how good that can be (-;

On a boat your size, why not? I'm sure your davits could hold our whole boat!

But for the rest of the smaller multi crowd (under say 50 feet) it seems like an awful lot of tools! 300kg in tools alone! I don't even have that much in building materials, and I'm still building! Well, mostly fairing and painting.

Cheers.
Paul.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

CaptainRivet I can't help but think that BS about carrying spares or being stuck on a remote island until they arrive has gone the same way long keels and ketch rigs have. I survey boats that are weighed down with everything from hoses, plywood to head gaskets etc. I also survey plenty of cruisers that have no spares beyond a few fuses, diesel filters and fan belts. Unless your mast breaks, your keel or rudder falls off there is no reason why you cannot sail to the nearest biggest city and either Fedex the parts or buy local. A quick google shows Fedex services 220 territories and countries. As for saving money, is it prudent to have thousands of dollars of spares onboard and never need them?
To show how ridiculous this carrying spares is, yesterday I surveyed a 40 foot cat and they were looking for their spare prop. The owner knew it was onboard but which locker and believe me there was a ton of lockers and they could have fitted on a marine store with all their spares.
Talk about thread drift.
Cheers

Just recently in the Canaries happen to me... And that is not Fidji or more remote
Zspar UK Headcar took 6 weeks with DHL "overnight express", ridiculous custom process due to brexit reshiped twice with same result. Was motoring or only genua around for 6 weeks...without a working Headcar no mainsail up. Shipping was as much as Headcar=double price. Now I have a replacement on board.
Seal for leaking Goit emergency hatch took 3 weeks with UPS overnight, yes again customs... forced 3 weeks at habour for 1000Euro, shipping was 400% cost of the seal... Now I have seals for all hattches on board.
My buddy boat 1 Lithium cell broke, he only had 4 400AH cells was forced to stay in habour on shorepower for 2 month till I brought 12 new cells from the mainland. Noone ships Lithium to Canaries officially since corona started

Totally overrated to carry spares, irony off...

[Redreuben]

Catsketcher; Overweight boats are equally likely to be created by owners knowing better than the designer.
9mm instead of 6, hardwood instead of soft, cheap ply instead of the premium, 1170 instead of 800gm etc, etc, etc, they don’t track the blubber they are adding and then blame the designer !

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by GRIT

Thanks for your comments. I guess I just don't understand where the 1.5 tonnes comes in as a "standard" as you suggest.

Please note, one must load a boat properly, considering performance. If it's all put in the bows, it's likely to handle badly... as an example. It seems your surveyor was trying to prove a point, so may have intentionally loaded the boat accordingly. I could load our 50 foot cat in such a way as to make her noticeably less agile too.

As to load:

If I use our boat as an example, which has far more tankage than necessary, and extra heavy ground tackle.

150 kg dinghy/engine/fuel and spare fuel, life vests and bailer.
400kg water in two tanks, but second tank is just for offshore (safety).
Watermaker, 30kg
Fuel: 200l day-tanks, 550l "offshore" tanks that my wife wanted.
60kg anchor, 180kg chain, Spare 50kg anchor, spare rode 30kg, spare anchor 30kg, spare rode 40kg.

Spare parts and tools 100kg. (I do have a spare engine after all)

Misc stuff such as dishes, bedsheets, clothes and such, I'll guess 100kg. 1920kg all up, and about 1500kg if you take away the surplus fuel/water. Which falls right on your 1.5 tonnes. But it's a 50 foot cat.

That's on a 50 foot cat sailed by a couple who can afford some comfort.

On a 35 foot cat, sailed by someone with less disposable income (Like my wife and I, 20 years ago)

The fuel, dinghy, anchor rodes and water would be less. Say 200l fuel, which is generous, 25kg anchor, 55kg chain and rode (30m at 1.45kg/m) spare anchor and mostly rope rode, 45kg. Dinghy 90kg incl engine and fuel. (our rowing dinghy weighed 33kg) , 200kg water, 30kg watermaker, 100 kg misc stuff, and another 100kg just to be nice for extra food or whatever. 55kg solar and accessories. 100 kg lead batteries.

That's 990kg. (I'm using real world water volume from our last boat, and anchor sizes one larger than manufacture's recommended size for a 35 foot cat in greater than 50 knots of wind) I'm also being generous with the water and fuel, which on my imaginary 35 foot catamaran would be halved. bringing the total to 800kg.

I realize those numbers could be higher, but they could also be lower too. Less fuel and water, rowing dinghy, less solar, and fewer electrical items requires less energy, and smaller batteries.

I'm not disrespecting your post, but I am questioning if my younger self would need so much "stuff" as to use 1.5 tonnes of buoyancy. I certainly didn't have that on our S&S 35. If a 20 day passage turns to 40 days, then you'll have to scrimp on showers. Our S&S had 80l of water, but I wasn't suggesting that would be suitable for offshore. You can simply add a 2kg bladder tank to the list of spares, and fill it when you're going offshore. 100l of water could last two people for nearly a month if necessary. Same goes for fuel.

We can't plan for every possible issue; one must eventually lose sight of the shore to embrace the freedom of the sea. It often seems that those folks who think one needs "more", started their cruising later in life. Those who start in their 20's may better remember what it's like to cruise "without".

Someone "up thread" mentioned that we used to go cruising and just deal with what came. I agree with that; though it's less prevalent today.

My opinion is that we all have different ideas of how much "safety" we need to accomplish a passage. My younger self was happy with much less than my present self. I shudder to think what I'll think I need in 20 years time.

Cheers, and safe passages.

Paul.

@smj: Tobago was loaded correctly and as balanced as possible. My surveyor and friend with 3 world cirumnavigation just wanted to demonstrate what happens... He do not need to trick here, he has nothing from being right... Actually more work as he was looking for me for a good cat which is tough work in a dry market...

@Paul and others: a lot stuff is not cat size related. Yes you can do a crossing with 2 but stressful and if one gets ill? 3 is minimum but best is 4.
You are forgetting 4 people with luggage including heavy weather gear">foul weather gear is 450kg min, so 1200kg....Tobago overloaded.
Even with 2 people you are over...
Food: just bottled emergency water for crossing 40 days 2l each 4 people is 320l,make it 250l =250kg only the water... How much do your gin Tonic sundowner for a month weight, another 15kg now the beer... And then the wine most take with because it's super expensive in Caribbean...
Again adding up quickly. You will easily reach the 400kg without luxery, just what normal cruisers have on board going a season in the Caribbean incl crossing... I was surprised too.

Did you really weight your tools? Guess not, well I lately moved to a cat and needed to take 2/3 of tools with by plane to fix things... Was surprised too with nearly 200kg..metall weights a lot... Just put your open end wrenches on the scale, two sets from 6 to 36, another 2 set ring wrenches, 3 sets nuts04-40, 3 normal+3 torque wrenches (small, med, big).Just That's already 45kg...again this adds up quickly...

[Matt Johnson]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Did you really weight your tools? Guess not, well I lately moved to a cat and needed to take 2/3 of tools with by plane to fix things... Was surprised too with nearly 200kg..metall weights a lot... Just put your open end wrenches on the scale, two sets from 6 to 36, another 2 set ring wrenches, 3 sets nuts04-40, 3 normal+3 torque wrenches (small, med, big).Just That's already 45kg...again this adds up quickly...

Two sets of all the tools you mentioned is really, really excessive.

We shipped back to the US everything we wanted from our boat a year ago when we sold it in the UK. We were limited to 150kg and knew the cost we were paying per kilo, so we weighed everything to determine it's replacement cost/weight to see if it was cheaper to buy again once in the US. We weren't quitting cruising - we are building a new boat - every tool, clothing item, safety item (Jordan drouge, life jacket) spare part (that wasn't specific to the boat), cooking, living enjoyment item, etc had value to us... I even weighed things like a 500 pack of blank printer paper to see if it was worth shipping vs buying new.

We are building a performance cat and these numbers also important to figuring out what we are talking about in this thread.

We came-up with 312kg total for all items on the boat - that's every locker, lazerette, all hiding places.... everything except food, water, fuel, old paint/chemicals, wind gen/solar (things bolted to the boat), watermaker, an old liferaft, spare anchor (Fortress FX-37 with rope rode), sails, dinghy/outboard (inflatable floor and 3.5hp - 50kg total), sewing machine, or spares specific to the engine onboard. This is for two people - full time cruisers - that built the boat from a bare hull (still had a lot of these tools aboard) that sailed from the Caribbean to Arctic Circle (heavy winter clothes) and had spares for pretty remote sailing.

We also had an additional 25kg of carry on weight for our flight, but that was mostly filming gear and isn't in the total.

Our videos show our cruising style, so it's pretty well documented what we had and what we did without. We aren't fancy, but lived comfortably.

I really think you're numbers are way overblown and trying to justify your point.

Matt

[GRIT]

We carry a single, 3/8" torque wrench. We rebuilt both engines before installing them (VW) using that single wrench.

If you've got three torque wrenches, then we certainly have different priorities for tools aboard.

If you want to save weight, you focus on saving weight, and plan accordingly. If you want to have every tool aboard, you'll have to focus on the load carrying ability of the boat.

Horses for courses, but I still don't think there's a minimum standard for equipment, or weight required to cruise safely.

Don't mistake convenience with safety.

Cheers.
Paul.

[GRIT]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

@smj: Tobago was loaded correctly and as balanced as possible. My surveyor and friend with 3 world cirumnavigation just wanted to demonstrate what happens... He do not need to trick here, he has nothing from being right... Actually more work as he was looking for me for a good cat which is tough work in a dry market...

@Paul and others: a lot stuff is not cat size related. Yes you can do a crossing with 2 but stressful and if one gets ill? 3 is minimum but best is 4.
You are forgetting 4 people with luggage including heavy foul weather gear is 450kg min, so 1200kg....Tobago overloaded.
Even with 2 people you are over...
Food: just bottled emergency water for crossing 40 days 2l each 4 people is 320l,make it 250l =250kg only the water... How much do your gin Tonic sundowner for a month weight, another 15kg now the beer... And then the wine most take with because it's super expensive in Caribbean...
Again adding up quickly. You will easily reach the 400kg without luxery, just what normal cruisers have on board going a season in the Caribbean incl crossing... I was surprised too.

Did you really weight your tools? Guess not, well I lately moved to a cat and needed to take 2/3 of tools with by plane to fix things... Was surprised too with nearly 200kg..metall weights a lot... Just put your open end wrenches on the scale, two sets from 6 to 36, another 2 set ring wrenches, 3 sets nuts04-40, 3 normal+3 torque wrenches (small, med, big).Just That's already 45kg...again this adds up quickly...

Yes, I weighed our tools, and water, and tanks, dinghy, davits, bow beam, boom, mast, sails etc... We built a performance cat, and had many choices to make regards weight and reliability. I like to have an idea what I'm taking aboard, so I know what to dump if the boat starts to perform poorly. It was/is always a consideration, as I want the boat to perform well. There are important things (to us) on which we didn't compromise (Ground tackle, and double bottom hulls for the North West Passage) and less important things where we do (specialty tools, every conceivable grit of sand paper, air compressor and paint guns, etc.)

Perhaps we have different understandings of the meaning of "minimum".

My wife and I crossed the Atlantic twice, with just the two of us aboard. I guess we didn't meet the "minimum" criteria you mention, but we did it; twice.

There will always be reasoning to justify "more" of anything. I'd like more length, more money, and more time. However, we're doing the best we can with what we've got. If I were to spend all my time trying to afford, or build, a boat that's large enough to perform well, while loaded with your minimums, I'd likely die before going cruising.

Life is a compromise. I'm happy with mine so far.

Cheers.
Paul.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Matt Johnson

Two sets of all the tools you mentioned is really, really excessive.

We shipped back to the US everything we wanted from our boat a year ago when we sold it in the UK. We were limited to 150kg and knew the cost we were paying per kilo, so we weighed everything to determine it's replacement cost/weight to see if it was cheaper to buy again once in the US. We weren't quitting cruising - we are building a new boat - every tool, clothing item, safety item (Jordan drouge, life jacket) spare part (that wasn't specific to the boat), cooking, living enjoyment item, etc had value to us... I even weighed things like a 500 pack of blank printer paper to see if it was worth shipping vs buying new.

We are building a performance cat and these numbers also important to figuring out what we are talking about in this thread.

We came-up with 312kg total for all items on the boat - that's every locker, lazerette, all hiding places.... everything except food, water, fuel, old paint/chemicals, wind gen/solar (things bolted to the boat), watermaker, an old liferaft, spare anchor (Fortress FX-37 with rope rode), sails, dinghy/outboard (inflatable floor and 3.5hp - 50kg total), sewing machine, or spares specific to the engine onboard. This is for two people - full time cruisers - that built the boat from a bare hull (still had a lot of these tools aboard) that sailed from the Caribbean to Arctic Circle (heavy winter clothes) and had spares for pretty remote sailing.

We also had an additional 25kg of carry on weight for our flight, but that was mostly filming gear and isn't in the total.

Our videos show our cruising style, so it's pretty well documented what we had and what we did without. We aren't fancy, but lived comfortably.

I really think you're numbers are way overblown and trying to justify your point.

Matt

Congrats on 312kg for all that, I think if you must you find a way.
Well I don't have to.

For you 2 sets is excessive, for me it's the bare minimum and sadly needed nearly every piece min once since May 2021 which means it's needed.
EG you have a no17 screw and nut, so you need 2 17 wrenches one to hold and one to counter...well one time enough space and you could use a frenchmen, the next only a ring wrench fits to counter, next only a flat 17 open end fits, next sits so tight you need 1m pipe as extension to open it so you need a heavy duty nut with a fixed handle where you can slide the pipe on to apply the force.

First service on a brand new volvo engine I needed a 1.5m extension to get the oil filter off. Why because after completing the engine Volvo covers everything in 2mm paint, all screws and filters are seized in place and you need an exact fitting nut or wrench otherwise you screw the head due to force you have to apply to open it and have an even bigger problem. Eg Opening the fuel bleeding screw ended up in a 3 days operation and at the end organized a welder welding a bigger nut on top of the screw to force it open. Thank God it didn't break...
I am a handy man and learned it the hard way in th last 30 years that a craftsman is only as good as its tools. And eg my ring wrench set is a
Gedore pro set from 1930 from my grandpa and a top notch quality that you cannot buy today anymore because nobody would pay the amount it would cost. And well it weights double of a new set.
A sewing machine is not on but on the shopping list...
@Paul : absolutely right, it's always a compromise and you have to be happy with it.
Don't even have a compressor or a paint gun anymore, that's low priority and can get around it if needed.

[tcpbob]

size of cat and load capacity and what to carry in that capacity... tender balance to that but here are some real examples. i had a rudder stalk crack while sailing in the Darwin-Ambon race in 2015. the crack caused the stalk to jam. for no other reason that intuition, i had a 2 inch hose clamp in my whatever box. i have no through hulls on my boat and no inboard motors but that hose clamp applied to the stalk saved the day. managed to salvage a fourth overall.


in tasmania i let a motor cable bracket fall overboard in cold, deep water. buggar! but i had some flat bar aluminium. i used drills to cut radius's and a hacksaw to cut lines. took 1.5 hours to make the part and it still serves 3 years later. it would have taken days and some high risk manuvering to have gotten to a town where there might have been a honda dealer who could order the part....



the last two times i went up on hard the travel lifts said i was 6 ton. still not bad. a combination of carefully selected raw material and tools can concentrate the load into a maximum of possibilities.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by GRIT

We carry a single, 3/8" torque wrench. We rebuilt both engines before installing them (VW) using that single wrench.

If you've got three torque wrenches, then we certainly have different priorities for tools aboard.

If you want to save weight, you focus on saving weight, and plan accordingly. If you want to have every tool aboard, you'll have to focus on the load carrying ability of the boat.

Horses for courses, but I still don't think there's a minimum standard for equipment, or weight required to cruise safely.

Don't mistake convenience with safety.

Cheers.
Paul.

I focused on performance for my budget, a Lagoon has significantly more payload then the FP.
My Lithium cells need 6nm torque and I regularly parallel the cells and no 3/8" torque wrench can do that. Yes I could get rid of the middle one but at significant expenses.
Going light and performance is always expensive, does not matter if cats, planes, cars, motorcycle....

But yes I agree there is room for improvement and I only live since may abord this cat and time will tell what I can get rid off...

[GRIT]

I'm afraid we're just on different sides of the matter. If you're actually measuring 6nm of torque on a battery cable, we're not going to see eye to eye on any of this.

I'm happy to know you're out cruising, and enjoying it, and would be happy to share an anchorage with you somewhere.

Until then....happy sailing.


Cheers.
Paul.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by GRIT

I'm afraid we're just on different sides of the matter. If you're actually measuring 6nm of torque on a battery cable, we're not going to see eye to eye on any of this.

I'm happy to know you're out cruising, and enjoying it, and would be happy to share an anchorage with you somewhere.

Until then....happy sailing.


Cheers.
Paul.

I am forced to measure exactly 6nm when tightening down the busbars after paralleling the cells to do a top balance and back. That’s what you get when you buy Lishen 840AH Lifepo4 cells for 1600Euro to your doorstep. They are great but the M6 studs+nuts on the poles are very fragile. Apply only 4nm of torque and they get hot due to bad connection and melt the pole when I am pulling 400A, apply 6-8nm and contact is perfect/no probs pulling 600A but after 10nm the Alu terminal is overnighted and toast
So I bought a good small torque wrench which is fully isolated too for exactly that purpose, still much cheaper then 4600Euro for 700AH Winston….so an obligatory tool for me but the overall weight savings wlth the Lithium is still worth the extra tool.

Happy sailing too and happy to share an anchorage too.
Chris from SV Nordcap