Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

[arsenelupiga]

i finally learned how to do sub 90 tacks. Stretch the jib with halyard. Surprised how easy sailing at 30 app is now. Took a while... Not that we sailed upwind much so far.

[B23iL23]

Yeah will always make a difference. Tightening the halyard will flatten the sail and pull the draft forward - so long as the sail is still fresh and still has it's shape, it will improve your upwind pointing.

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

i finally learned how to do sub 90 tacks. Stretch the jib with halyard. Surprised how easy sailing at 30 app is now. Took a while... Not that we sailed upwind much so far.

[arsenelupiga]

so, lets see these monohullers can produce angle like this with 2.5 T loaded L 400

[arsenelupiga]

almost forgot : i can now in 10 kn manage 3.2kn VMG. Use screecher running inside shrouds. I was hoping for more but looks like designer did not take this option into account. Maybe next screecher. I think boat can do close to 4 kn VMG.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

almost forgot : i can now in 10 kn manage 3.2kn VMG. Use screecher running inside shrouds. I was hoping for more but looks like designer did not take this option into account. Maybe next screecher. I think boat can do close to 4 kn VMG.

I understand how great it is to get the performance out of a boat that it has in it’s design but don’t be too jubilant about “let’s see how monohulls do that” because even though cats have improved much, a monohull will still beat that by double performance. In you example above, your vmg confirms the projected polar diagram but as you can see in the attachments, a 40’ monohull will do 6 knots there. Also, your wind angle can not outperform a monohull of similar length/ age and that monohull will always be a lot faster at those angles.

We are more like a cat performance wise and with 64’ length we must work hard to beat these Beneteau’s that are smaller. I can barely catch the 47’

Reaching and broad reaching are the wind angles to rule.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I understand how great it is to get the performance out of a boat that it has in it’s design but don’t be too jubilant about “let’s see how monohulls do that” because even though cats have improved much, a monohull will still beat that by double performance. In you example above, your vmg confirms the projected polar diagram but as you can see in the attachments, a 40’ monohull will do 6 knots there. Also, your wind angle can not outperform a monohull of similar length/ age and that monohull will always be a lot faster at those angles.

We are more like a cat performance wise and with 64’ length we must work hard to beat these Beneteau’s that are smaller. I can barely catch the 47’

Reaching and broad reaching are the wind angles to rule.

ey, you read it wrong. I said 3.2 VMG meaning this is speed directly against wind. Actually I do 5 kn at 34 app. This mono does 4 kn VMG so with better sail I hope can do it too. And then do not forget we are liveabords and weight that comes with it. When wind pips up, and flat water, our angles and speed get better than this mono actually. In 20 kn they are left behind

These polars of L 400, i have no idea what they mean, we beat them loaded on average by 2 kn.

[django37]

Also easily beat our polars, folding props, coppercoat, squaretop main with carbon, but loaded for living onboard

[django37]

Numbers

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

ey, you read it wrong. I said 3.2 VMG meaning this is speed directly against wind. Actually I do 5 kn at 34 app. This mono does 4 kn VMG so with better sail I hope can do it too. And then do not forget we are liveabords and weight that comes with it. When wind pips up, and flat water, our angles and speed get better than this mono actually. In 20 kn they are left behind

These polars of L 400, i have no idea what they mean, we beat them loaded on average by 2 kn.

Something must be wrong then because here are the vmg’s from the polars, with the L400 at 1.6kts and the F40 4.5kts which is 2.8x as fast...

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

ey, you read it wrong. I said 3.2 VMG meaning this is speed directly against wind. Actually I do 5 kn at 34 app. This mono does 4 kn VMG so with better sail I hope can do it too. And then do not forget we are liveabords and weight that comes with it. When wind pips up, and flat water, our angles and speed get better than this mono actually. In 20 kn they are left behind

These polars of L 400, i have no idea what they mean, we beat them loaded on average by 2 kn.

Well, Arsenlupia, that is very good performance you are getting from your Lagoon 400. Looking at the Polars Jedi provided for your boat, in 10 knots of true wind, your boat is projected to attain about 2.5 knots VMG and about 4.5knots of boat speed at a TWA of 50deg, meaning tacking angles of 100deg.

the polar for the first 40.7, a very high perfromance monohull, shows projected VMG in 10 kts true of about 4.5kts, at about 42 degrees TWA, with a boat speed of about 6.5 knots and tacking through 84 degrees.

It is reasonable to note that the 40.7 would not be doing this fully loaded, and I would be astounded if you could attain the numbers you gave with 2.5 tons of gear, catamarans are not noted for great load carrying ability or such surperb performance far exceeding the polar diagrams for the vessel.

My own monohull, a 41 year old 43' race boat has a polar diagram which shows VMG of 4.8 knots and a boat speed of 6.68 in 10kts of true wind, at an angle of 42 degrees. Loaded with livaboard equipment of approximately 2200lbs over standard boat condition we cannot attain those numbers but we come very close.

I have never seen a cruising oriented catamaran come anywhere close to sailing with us upwind and I've raced against several with serious racers on board.

Django's Polar diagram shows similar numbers to yours, 2.5kts VMG at 50+ degrees TWA in 10 knots of wind.

So your performance and his are quite remarkable. I won't rule out that you have discovered the secret of making your boat go fast but there are other possibilities, one of which is strong favorable current.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Well, Arsenlupia, that is very good performance you are getting from your Lagoon 400. Looking at the Polars Jedi provided for your boat, in 10 knots of true wind, your boat is projected to attain about 2.5 knots VMG and about 4.5knots of boat speed at a TWA of 50deg, meaning tacking angles of 100deg.

the polar for the first 40.7, a very high perfromance monohull, shows projected VMG in 10 kts true of about 4.5kts, at about 42 degrees TWA, with a boat speed of about 6.5 knots and tacking through 84 degrees.

It is reasonable to note that the 40.7 would not be doing this fully loaded, and I would be astounded if you could attain the numbers you gave with 2.5 tons of gear, catamarans are not noted for great load carrying ability or such surperb performance far exceeding the polar diagrams for the vessel.

My own monohull, a 41 year old 43' race boat has a polar diagram which shows VMG of 4.8 knots and a boat speed of 6.68 in 10kts of true wind, at an angle of 42 degrees. Loaded with livaboard equipment of approximately 2200lbs over standard boat condition we cannot attain those numbers but we come very close.

I have never seen a cruising oriented catamaran come anywhere close to sailing with us upwind and I've raced against several with serious racers on board.

Django's Polar diagram shows similar numbers to yours, 2.5kts VMG at 50+ degrees TWA in 10 knots of wind.

So your performance and his are quite remarkable. I won't rule out that you have discovered the secret of making your boat go fast but there are other possibilities, one of which is strong favorable current.

you are right we had ~1 kn current in our direction in that pic. Still was impressed by angle myself. But we do sub 90 tacks with decent speed without current. Drifting is less than expected when one check details of track. I started from scratch regarding sail trim when purchased boat, and here and there discover new trick. This was now upwind as we are still in tropics and lots of light winds. Before we were able to make with standard jib and main 2.9 kn upwind, which is still better than polars. No I cant match Django numbers, although I trust they are legit. His main is larger than standard and carbon. Maybe my next main will be better... One can see stretching that is going on when upwind. I am happy for my routing purposes to use 3 kn for direct upwind route which is 72 nm in 24 hrs. Should be able to beat it most of time. As they say, it is the skipper that makes boat perform and not the other way around.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by django37

Numbers

impressive ! using jib and main ?

[JustMurph]

A few years back I sailed a lagoon 421 and the performance was as bad as described in the OP. sailing to windward was pretty much pointless.

On my mumby 48, in 15 knots true we’ll do 8.5knots at about 33° and tack through around 100°. Sails are a little flogged, so the numbers could be better, but it’s a good pace none the less.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by JustMurph

A few years back I sailed a lagoon 421 and the performance was as bad as described in the OP. sailing to windward was pretty much pointless.

On my mumby 48, in 15 knots true we’ll do 8.5knots at about 33° and tack through around 100°. Sails are a little flogged, so the numbers could be better, but it’s a good pace none the less.

your VMG is 5.37 as per above. we do 6 kn at 30 app in 15 kn. Our VMG is 4.5 kn. This is 19% better. Not bad but not that great difference, given comfort penalty you had to take.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

your VMG is 5.37 as per above. we do 6 kn at 30 app in 15 kn. Our VMG is 4.5 kn. This is 19% better. Not bad but not that great difference, given comfort penalty you had to take.

I expect the more performant (and larger) boat will be able to maintain and extend that VMG differential as the wind and particularly seas pick up. Flat water performance is nice, but not that useful for estimating performance in rougher water.

Anyway, you show very good performance, nice.