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**Tupaia** · 31-01-2021, 01:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

I thought to repeat upwind exercise to ensure I am not missing something an here you go, well performing again. So it must be true. L 400 perform pretty well upwind for its size.

We had nice upwind sail, second part recorded 2 kn current against us. Winds 10 to 20 kn. 1 reef in main. Flattish water. And one can see tacks are pretty good.
We managed 5 to 6 kn boat speed over water at true wind angle 41. SO that shows leeway is less than what you say, as early tacks are sub 90. Must be less than 4 deg.

Obviously you have not sailed Lagoon to full potential yet. Probably just charter boat, which is world apart from well setup Lagoon for sailing.

As I stated before you should be happy with what you are achieving but without ALL of the data it is impossible to comment on your actual performance.

So next time you are out record the time, tide, wave height, sail combinations and settings. Then use something like OpenCPN to generate some Polars for your boat.

Here is the preliminary Polar from VPLP for L400 Lagoon 400 polar diagram.pdf

arsenelupiga · 31-01-2021, 02:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tupaia

As I stated before you should be happy with what you are achieving but without ALL of the data it is impossible to comment on your actual performance.

So next time you are out record the time, tide, wave height, sail combinations and settings. Then use something like OpenCPN to generate some Polars for your boat.

Here is the preliminary Polar from VPLP for L400 Attachment 231644

topic of this thread is cat tacking angles. I have shown lagoon 400 can tack sub 90 degrees with good speed, doing 4+ kn VMG, fully loaded.

You should take out your cat and see if you can also do it and post here so monohullers get better idea of capabilities.

VPLP polar diagram for L 400 is a joke. I can beat it on any point of sail fully loaded.

Heath68 · 31-01-2021, 03:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

I thought to repeat upwind exercise to ensure I am not missing something an here you go, well performing again. So it must be true. L 400 perform pretty well upwind for its size.

We had nice upwind sail, second part recorded 2 kn current against us. Winds 10 to 20 kn. 1 reef in main. Flattish water. And one can see tacks are pretty good.
We managed 5 to 6 kn boat speed over water at true wind angle 41. SO that shows leeway is less than what you say, as early tacks are sub 90. Must be less than 4 deg.

Obviously you have not sailed Lagoon to full potential yet. Probably just charter boat, which is world apart from well setup Lagoon for sailing.

The L400 on paper also looks a lot better than others from the same factory.

**Tupaia** · 31-01-2021, 03:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

VPLP polar diagram for L 400 is a joke. I can beat it on any point of sail fully loaded.

So prove it by generating some polars of your own. Your figures so far are subjective rather than objective.

I am unable to get to my boat and don't have access to my boat PC due to Covid, so the only Polar I have is for very light wind and calm sea. It was full main and screecher, 1/4 daggerboard, fully load on passage. There was no current and my closest AWA was 34°

Click image for larger version

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arsenelupiga · 31-01-2021, 04:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heath68

The L400 on paper also looks a lot better than others from the same factory.

one can see many L 400 are made into luxury appartment, which is fine, but boat loses fine part of performance. Still goes in a blow of course. Many L 400 reporting driving upwind close to 50 app at best. Ours is spartan using Lagoon standards, 12 V boat and not even diesel generator, and therefore light and more streamlined. Wife is happy with how things are and we both enjoy good sail.

One can observe how weight quickly chews away performance even for lagoon.

CatNewBee · 31-01-2021, 07:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

one can see many L 400 are made into luxury appartment, which is fine, but boat loses fine part of performance. Still goes in a blow of course. Many L 400 reporting driving upwind close to 50 app at best. Ours is spartan using Lagoon standards, 12 V boat and not even diesel generator, and therefore light and more streamlined. Wife is happy with how things are and we both enjoy good sail.

One can observe how weight quickly chews away performance even for lagoon.

True. The lighter a 400 is, the better she sails. Even fully loaded they sail better than just acceptable. New sails and some optimizations of the rigg may help too to point higher.

But most of the time any boot is either at the dock or at anchor. So performance in this point of sail is also very important, even if it adds on weight, comfort makes you loving it and not running away when you see land [emoji41]...

Simon.Sails · 31-01-2021, 10:11

Someone here mentioned earlier that the Nautitech 40 has poor performance upwind even compared to other cats. Is that based on real world experience? I've heard the opposite so far, for a non-daggerboard cat the Nautitech Open 40 performs relatively well against the wind.

arsenelupiga · 31-01-2021, 12:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

True. The lighter a 400 is, the better she sails. Even fully loaded they sail better than just acceptable. New sails and some optimizations of the rigg may help too to point higher.

But most of the time any boot is either at the dock or at anchor. So performance in this point of sail is also very important, even if it adds on weight, comfort makes you loving it and not running away when you see land [emoji41]...

we have flexibility to change boat characteristics, from performance to comfort and vice versa, if desired. VPLP design helps here.

word on the street is you crossed atlantic recently - corona rules causing grief?

Factor · 31-01-2021, 16:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simon.Sails

Someone here mentioned earlier that the Nautitech 40 has poor performance upwind even compared to other cats.

That would be me

Quote:

Is that based on real world experience?

Yes, based on its participation ia social reace environment in Brisbane Australia, and in more competitive races in Airlie Beach Race Week and Hamilton Island Race week

Quote:

I've heard the opposite so far, for a non-daggerboard cat the Nautitech Open 40 performs relatively well against the wind

Yep, I have heard that as well, havent seen it though.

Simon.Sails · 31-01-2021, 23:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Factor

That would be me Yes, based on its participation ia social reace environment in Brisbane Australia, and in more competitive races in Airlie Beach Race Week and Hamilton Island Race week Yep, I have heard that as well, havent seen it though.

Thanks, will have to test that myself later this year. Quite important factor for a cat in the med I think.

arsenelupiga · 01-02-2021, 00:30

have not gone thru all pages of this thread but occured to me we seem to be in very small group of boats posting here evidence of sub 90 tacks.

Can you please post sub 90 tacks ? Hard to believe L 400 is above average regarding upwind for cats, but this is the feeling i get from reactions here.

CatNewBee · 01-02-2021, 04:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

...

word on the street is you crossed atlantic recently - corona rules causing grief?

Yes, we had a great smoothe passage between Dec. 17th and Jan. 12th, sailed across directly from Las Palmas to St. Martin (F) staying as far north as possible below the duldrums for steady but not to strong trades. We had a friend from the US as crew, he was new to sailing and we don't wanted to scare him too much on the passage.

Actually we've been surfing the Corona wave for an year now quite successfully... Not one test yet and we hope to keep it that way as long as possible.

We sailed around Sicily as they allowed regional traffic after the lockdown up to the Lipari islands, then inter-region was allowed and we sailed to Sardinia. Balearics opened up... that opened the path to Mallorca, then Germany issued a travel warning there and all tourists disappeared, we had a great season there, been to Formentera for a couple of weeks, crossed to the mainland Spain right before they started over with restrictions. We hauled out for 10 days in
Cartagena and sailed to Almerimar for some time, where I fitted the 2nd autopilot, then to La Linea / Gib for two weeks to get my Iridium and wait for a nice weather window.

The Canaries are spanish and travel was unrestricted within Spain, so we made it to La Graciosa, stayed there to relax after the first ocean leg. Lanzarote, Fuerteventura and finally Gran Canaria / Las Palmas right before the ARC. Spain issued PCR test before arrival on the islands, be we've been there already. We stayed there longer than expected, when checking the rigg, our main winch loosed some teeth on the drum and we waited almost 14 days for parts. Weather was OK, we mailed with the authorities on the Caribbean islands for clear in procedures and checked Noonsite, most wanted pre-departure PCR and Quarantine, PCR on arrival, Martinique and Guadeloupe wanted a good reason on top (curfew) but Saint Martin was relaxed, EU flagged were allowed, passage time was accounted as 14 days quarantine if the skipper attests no symptoms prior and during the passage and provides the zarpe copy (checkout) from an EU port with no stop overs elsewhere. So we were allowed on land. Moving on the island between the french and dutch side on land or by dinghy is unrestricted, with the yacht you have to clear out and clear in with all C19 procedures. Marigot bay is a nice anchorage so we enjoy it a lot.

We think about DomRep as the next destination, they don't require testing either, Mexico could be a good candidate too. But we'll see how it develops, maybe a travel bubble 2.0...

django37 · 01-02-2021, 08:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tupaia

So prove it by generating some polars of your own. Your figures so far are subjective rather than objective.

I am unable to get to my boat and don't have access to my boat PC due to Covid, so the only Polar I have is for very light wind and calm sea. It was full main and screecher, 1/4 daggerboard, fully load on passage. There was no current and my closest AWA was 34°

Attachment 231645

I dont think we have to prove anything. If you dont believe us, then dont! No current here

**Tupaia** · 01-02-2021, 09:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by django37

I dont think we have to prove anything. If you dont believe us, then dont! No current here

Never said YOU should or that I don't believe YOU. There is and never was any doubt that cats can sail very well to windward as is excellently illustrated in your post.

My comments were aimed at arsenelupiga who seems to be having some difficulty collecting the appropriate data from his boat, understanding it and analysing it in a meaningful way so that he can compare with other cats without actually sailing against them.