Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

No videos = no reliable results. Too many ways to cherry pick data.
As far as tacking less than 90 degrees, a simple screenshot shows nothing without video. Turn the drawing upside down or say you were going the opposite direction and it looks great. No scale of the map. No one else to verify results.
Even videos can be misleading if the instruments are off. You really need videos of both tacks, sea state, etc.

And who sails in flat seas and 9-10kts of wind? It's never like that where we sail. Maybe some special places in the world it's like that. In the Caribbean its 15-25kts and 1-3m seas virtually all the time.

As it has been pointed out, going slow makes for tighter tacks.
Going faster makes for wider tacking angles. No way around that.

It's plainly obvious by now some people won't back up what they say and they continue to act surprised when people don't believe them.
If your boat will do what you say, prove it. If you won't prove it, please stop with the nonsense.

I've sailed on one L400 and admittedly it was a little worn out, but barely anything on board, so lightly loaded. It would barely go upwind at all. Let alone 3-4kts VMG.

i completely understand your frustrations. I started sailing upwind L 400 thinking 50 app is the best it can do. It took me years to pull out best of our L 400. Regarding flat seas, i agree with you. Around sydney where we started there is no flat seas. Confused seas is the best description. But once we started sailing tropics, coral reefs in New Cal, realized there is different world. You get falt seas consistent 8 kn wind for days. As this is our destination, now I try to improve that part of performance. You believe or not is your problem. Everyone talks boat can do this can do that, noone mentions skills of mariner and what impact they have on boat behaviour. And as well sail selection, clean hulls, etc.

[Alistair242]

Originally Posted by sailjumanji

Our route from house to open Gulf includes a section of ship channel heading SE into a predominant SE wind. If we can hold 30 deg AWA - which we can even on autopilot - we can make the 5 nm with maybe only one tack. The other condomarans can be seen with sails down motoring along this stretch.

I disagree with the tiny fraction. So many times we find our destination is slightly cracked off upwind. In the Bahamas 2019, we befriended a cat (I wont name manufacture) whose best angle upwind was maybe 42-45 deg AWA. They motored everywhere; we sailed. We spent a lot of time with them trying to improve performance via sail trim, sheeting angles, etc. Just wasnt going to happen. Sad every day we would leave together headed for next anchorage, and they'd try to sail it, but eventually start the motors when we were almost out of sight. A couple months later when we left them, they were scanning Yachtworld for a better sailing boat. To replace the one they just purchased a couple months before. And this couple raced dinghys before their cruising foray, so werent novice.

Agreed it is better to be able to sail, and close hauled, in those situations. If your planning is good you can stay away from them for a lot of the time when cruising if you have time. Our boat is pretty new to us and we are still trying to get the best out of her on all points of sail. So far to windward we can match comparably sized monohulls and have no problem pulling ahead of some more portly shaped production cats. All good fun but looking forward to sailing more long downwind runs in the tropics.

[sailjumanji]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

yes bad tacking angles are annoying in such situations, we also had similar experience, seeing other boats (cats or monos) motoring when we happily sailed upwind. But for ocean crossings one worries about DDW and reaching performance as this is 90% of time. Yet to see someone that is looking for upwind passage.

BS. People who own boats that won't go upwind always say this. "We only reach or sail downwind." Guess what, if that's the predominant wind direction, you are going to have to sail upwind on your return. Unless you are circumnavigation all the time. Which I highly doubt.

Guess what. Texas to South Florida is predominately upwind. (First leg on the way to Bahamas) You can either puss out and sail it, or motor and look for fuel stops. Or stay home.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by sailjumanji

BS. People who own boats that won't go upwind always say this. "We only reach or sail downwind." Guess what, if that's the predominant wind direction, you are going to have to sail upwind on your return. Unless you are circumnavigation all the time. Which I highly doubt.

Guess what. Texas to South Florida is predominately upwind. (First leg on the way to Bahamas) You can either puss out and sail it, or motor and look for fuel stops. Or stay home.

we had this has to go upwind situation getting sick of gale force winds at Lizard Island. Picked low wind day around 30 kn on the nose and short choppy seas. Still managed 3 kn VMG upwind and with good comfort. One tack we had to go 55 app, even occasional 60 to avoid slamming, but then the other tack was ok down to 40 or so. Primary goal was not to overstress the boat. We had a crash course and learn to optimize route to sail in protection of reefs, tacking on wind shifts, shore impact on wind direction and strength and afternoon trade wind shift.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

And of course I'd never hope to compete with a supernatural vessel...

JIm

Strangely enough, the owners of these vessels refuse to race.....

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Strangely enough, the owners of these vessels refuse to race.....

I think this is consistent with the decision to buy that particular brand / model. You are into comfort cruising and living on board and not into racing. It is a different attitude.

Why would one want to race and put stress on the hull, rigging and structures / furniture resulting in shortening the life expectancy of a boat / home on the water?

If I would want to race, I would buy a different boat.

It is like cars. Racing: Porsche, Ferrari... Family car: Van or SUV. You wouldn't race with a Family-Van on a race track, and going to the hardware store or campground with a Ferrari is not a lot of fun either with the limited trunc size.

[Training Wheels]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

I think this is consistent with the decision to buy that particular brand / model. You are into comfort cruising and living on board and not into racing. It is a different attitude.

Why would one want to race and put stress on the hull, rigging and structures / furniture resulting in shortening the life expectancy of a boat / home on the water?

If I would want to race, I would buy a different boat.

It is like cars. Racing: Porsche, Ferrari... Family car: Van or SUV. You wouldn't race with a Family-Van on a race track, and going to the hardware store or campground with a Ferrari is not a lot of fun either with the limited trunc size.

Depends, if you’re a person claiming your family van is as fast or faster than a Porsche or Ferrari, maybe you’d want to participate in a friendly “race” to prove it?

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Training Wheels

Depends, if you’re a person claiming your family van is as fast or faster than a Porsche or Ferrari, maybe you’d want to participate in a friendly “race” to prove it?

Or, more likely, keep making the wild claims, but steadfastly avoid any opportunity to prove them....

[Factor]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

It is like cars. Racing: Porsche, Ferrari... Family car: Van or SUV. You wouldn't race with a Family-Van on a race track, and going to the hardware store or campground with a Ferrari is not a lot of fun either with the limited trunc size.

And if you owned a van or SUV (silliest name for a car I can think of BTW - nothing sporty about most SUVs)you wouldnt go round telling people it accelerates faster than a ferrari or out corners a Porsche. Going to the hardware store and campground in a Ferrari IS a lot of fun (ive owned two), coming home not so much.

[sailjumanji]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Strangely enough, the owners of these vessels refuse to race.....

We have a pretty active group of predominately Leopard and Lagoon boats that do bay races and annual 150 nm offshore race here in Texas. Lagoons from a 37 to a 440. Many with synthetic sails, aquare tops, large inventory - these guys are serious about competing. Manufacturers trophies, etc. No liveaboards, these are weekend boats kept relatively unloaded. I am on the PHRF committee responsible for rating. I dont think we have a Lagoon 400 in the fleet. Apparently that would be the sleeper among the Lagoons, as the others perform as expected.

[Boatguy30]

Hope to do that race someday. No doubt any Lagoon 400 will now have such a bad PHRF rating!!!!
Obviously you have all the relative numbers and don’t see it either. Leopard 46 is about the best cruising cat I’ve come across.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

...Why would one want to race and put stress on the hull, rigging and structures / furniture resulting in shortening the life expectancy of a boat / home on the water?

If I would want to race, I would buy a different boat...

Why?

Because it is not possible to have one boat for racing, another for cruising, and a third for living aboard and we thought all three could be done with one boat, properly chosen.

We bought a boat to live aboard. We also wanted to cruise the world. And we never felt willing to give up racing.

So we bought a boat which could do all three very well, a monohull race boat with a voluminous (empty) interior and turned it into a house. We retained as much as possible the race boat characteristics.

We felt a race boat could take the stress on the hull, rigging and structures / furniture without resulting in shortening the life expectancy of our home on the water.

In 35 years, nearly 500 races, and a circumnavigation it has proven it could, and still can.

If I felt I had to avoid sailing my boat hard because I didn't want to stress it I would have bought the wrong boat.

[sailjumanji]

Originally Posted by Boatguy30

Hope to do that race someday. No doubt any Lagoon 400 will now have such a bad PHRF rating!!!! .

"Bad", as in fast? Nah, we have to take into account the physical attributes of the boat, not just one exceptional sailor.
;-)

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

I think this is consistent with the decision to buy that particular brand / model. You are into comfort cruising and living on board and not into racing. It is a different attitude.

Why would one want to race and put stress on the hull, rigging and structures / furniture resulting in shortening the life expectancy of a boat / home on the water?

If I would want to race, I would buy a different boat.

It is like cars. Racing: Porsche, Ferrari... Family car: Van or SUV. You wouldn't race with a Family-Van on a race track, and going to the hardware store or campground with a Ferrari is not a lot of fun either with the limited trunc size.

44'cruisingcat is not talking about a full blow sponsored race season just a friendly between two different boats under specific circumstances.

It would also be an opportunity to sail on each others boats and learn about them.

To say that such a race would put too much stress on your boat would suggest a lack of confidence in the boat and certainly not something you would want to cross an ocean on or get caught in a storm.

It must also be presumed that to achieve the claimed stratospheric performance the L400 in question it is already being pressed to the limit.

[Boatguy30]

Don’t forget the “P” is for Personal