Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

[Factor]

Originally Posted by tedowens

The biggest factor effecting this on a catamaran is whether the boat has dagger boards or not. A catamaran with dagger boards will point as high as any mono-hull. However, those boats have some downsides. First, they cost about twice what a mini-keel catamaran does. Also, the structure of the dagger board housing takes up a a lot of interior space. Finally, these boats only achieve their superior performance when they are kept light, which is the opposite of how a full time cruiser lives as we tend to carry a lot of gear and supplies.

Dagger board boats dont cost double, the easiest comparo is probably the Seawind 1160L and the 1190S - effectively same boat, one without daggers and one with. The price difference new is about 15-20%.

Plenty of people I know live aboarde and cruise full time on Dagger Board boats, with all their worldly possessions.

[charliehows]

went for a sail on a mates cat - cant remember the make, but it didnt have centreboards, only small minkeels, and it could not make way tacking. I owned a trimaran also without centreboards in the 80s and it was also a dog to windward. Add centreboards and cats will outpoint keelers fairly easily, and if they are kept light they go to wind very well. And, of course, some cats do have effective solid keels, which make them quite sailable. I wouldnt buy a cat without a seatrial for this single reason.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Factor

Plenty of people I know live aboarde and cruise full time on Dagger Board boats, with all their worldly possessions.

People who want sailing performance will compromise on many other things in order to keep it.

[Boatguy30]

3 of us racing our cats this year in Georgetown this year were much faster than a Cabot 36 upwind. And I would bet the Cabot is much faster than that Southern Cross 31! Nice thing about getting out and racing a bit is you have data.

[Captain Bill]

Originally Posted by charliehows

went for a sail on a mates cat - cant remember the make, but it didnt have centreboards, only small minkeels, and it could not make way tacking. I owned a trimaran also without centreboards in the 80s and it was also a dog to windward. Add centreboards and cats will outpoint keelers fairly easily, and if they are kept light they go to wind very well. And, of course, some cats do have effective solid keels, which make them quite sailable. I wouldnt buy a cat without a seatrial for this single reason.

Keeping them light is the key and cats with board seem especially sensitive to weight. Last year heading for Highbourne Cay from Morgans Bluff I noticed a Catana following the same route we were about 3 miles behind us on AIS. The wind was just ahead of the beam so with boat speed we were on a close reach. I remarked to my wife that we'd be see a Catana passing us in a short while. We both had full main and Jibs up. A little while later we were 4 miles ahead of them by the time we got to Highbourne they were almost 7 miles behind us. I was shocked as a Catana should have blown my doors off going to windward. They were loaded for cruising and it affected their performance much more than it did on my stub keel condomaran.

[nmccubbin]

Very glad you ask about tacking angles rather than "How close will she point"
Most info posted on tacking is misleading because apparent and true wind angles are quoted indiscriminately, and leeway forgotten.

The key data is the tacking angle from GPS based courses, always assuming that you come off enough to go at a decent speed.

We sail a centerboard monohull. In flat water with a good breeze, we tack through about 90 degrees. In a bad chop and light wind it can be as bad as 130 degrees.

My only experience with a cat was a week's charter. She tacked through about 150 degrees in fairly flat water

I have seen cats bouncing to windward under power in the Caribbean that can probably not sail to windward at all

Of course the racing cats do better, but they are grossly uncomfortable for cruising.

Having sailed one cat and seen many, I would not want one. but that is just a personal preference. There are many pros and cons

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by nmccubbin

...We sail a centerboard monohull. In flat water with a good breeze, we tack through about 90 degrees. In a bad chop and light wind it can be as bad as 130 degrees.

We sail a 40 year old race boat, which we live on, and in flat water and nice breeze, we tack through 80 degrees, or less, and in the adverse conditions you mention, it's more like 110.

A cat which needs to tack through more than 110, in my opinion, should carry a lot of fuel.

[catsketcher]

Originally Posted by tedowens

A catamaran with dagger boards will point as high as any mono-hull. However, those boats have some downsides. First, they cost about twice what a mini-keel catamaran does. Also, the structure of the dagger board housing takes up a a lot of interior space. Finally, these boats only achieve their superior performance when they are kept light, which is the opposite of how a full time cruiser lives as we tend to carry a lot of gear and supplies.

In most cats the dagger cases are set on the outside of the hulls and take up only some bench space and there is no real impact inside. As for price, daggerboards may cost a little more to build but they don't make the boat cost double. In Australia there are a few daggerboard Chincogan 40s and Lightwaves, they are pretty much the same price as minikeel cats.

We lived as a family of 4 on our 38ft cat for three years and have lived aboard for another year as a couple. Our boat sailed nicely even with all our school work, kayaks, bikes and assorted toys.

One thing we didn't ever have was 1000 litres of fuel. That sure is a lot. One of the nice things about a daggerboard boat is that going daggerboard usually shows that the designer and builder have been keen to make a boat that sails nicely, so it will probably have lighter weight, lower drag and better sails. So we need only a little fuel - about 200-300 litres every year was what we did when cruising. So we only carried about 100-60 litres and that lasted months. We did carry up to 500 litres of water which lasted us about a month or two, longer as a couple. We could carry 3 months of groceries but needed to stop more often for fruit and veges. (although cabbages lasted a couple of months)

Our daggerboard cat is large for us and carries lots of supplies. We have previously lived on a boat that was incredibly sensitive to weight, but a modern performance cat can take a lot of weight above empty and sail well.

That said, if Lagoons suit you more then of course you will be happier on one.

[yeloya]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Catanas are heavy and yet they tack pretty well.

My Catana 47 carbon weights 10,7 tons. Very few boats are lighter , faster and tack better
Even not Outremer 51 that I've extensively sailed..

Cheers

Yeloya

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Boatguy30

3 of us racing our cats this year in Georgetown this year were much faster than a Cabot 36 upwind. And I would bet the Cabot is much faster than that Southern Cross 31! Nice thing about getting out and racing a bit is you have data.

I was there for that and it was interesting to say the least, I briefly considered it myself, but was told I couldn’t use my Code Zero and quickly lost interest.
What was interesting boats were of course mostly all actual cruising boats. I only saw the part in the harbor.

[mglonnro]

Here's a nice post written about the performance of a Spirited 480.

This makes our average tacking angle 110° to 115° at the end of the day. In ideal conditions we can do a little better, sometimes around 100°, but never less and on a shitty bumpy day or pushing a little current, I wouldn’t lie to you and say I have never seen a 120° tack.

Upwind Catamaran Sailing onboard ROAM — Sail Surf ROAM

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Bullshooter

Whoa, I must be seeing things. Did 44' Cruising Cat show 20 degrees AWA running 9.4 knots? That is head and shoulders better than what is being discussed here.

What boat is that? What was the TWA?

Not 20 degrees, closer to 30 degrees. We usually sail upwind at around 30 degrees. TWA more like 50, so tacking through around 100, plus leeway.

We could tack through tighter angles, simply by slowing the boat down, but that would result in a slower VMG.

The boat is an Oram 44C, designed by Bob Oram.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

Here's a nice post written about the performance of a Spirited 480.



Upwind Catamaran Sailing onboard ROAM — Sail Surf ROAM

I asked them about this, because in a fast cat 38 degrees apparent is barely upwind at all. (Extreme racing boats sail tighter angles than this downwind) He said they had originally asked for a very deep cut headsail for reaching. I believe they have a new, flatter headsail now, and point higher.

They more recently posted a track where they were tacking through about 90degrees. They did this using only the mainsail, so basically by slowing down.

[wingssail]

Boats like Curt Schonning's 48 and Oram's 44, with deep draft boards. slender hulls, and great sail-plans perform wonderfully, as do, I'm sure the production cats like Outremer and Catana.

I'll still have confidence on Wings in a boat for boat upwind contest with any 44' cat equipped and loaded for liveaboard or cruising. In a reach, they'll rocket by me. Heavy weather downwind, when I can sail deep, maybe I'd have a chance.

But if I was starting over right now, I'd look at one of these beautiful, fast cats.

Cats are the future.

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

I asked them about this, because in a fast cat 38 degrees apparent is barely upwind at all. (Extreme racing boats sail tighter angles than this downwind) He said they had originally asked for a very deep cut headsail for reaching. I believe they have a new, flatter headsail now, and point higher.

They more recently posted a track where they were tacking through about 90degrees. They did this using only the mainsail, so basically by slowing down.

Cool.

Last year, when deciding whether to buy a monohull or something else, we chartered a Lagoon 39 to see whether it would be "fun to sail". Well, it wasn't, so we went with the monohull.

Back then I thought multihulls = Lagoon (and similar ones). Now, luckily, I've realized there are quite a few performance multihulls that might be perfect "dreamboats", somewhere down the road.

I've never been on one, though. Will be fun to see if the experience matches the hype