Catamarans in 50kt winds

[tp12]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Even an armchair sailor should know the difference between the Cape of Good Hope and Cape Horn.

My mistake, I rushed into that one. However cruising catamarans rounding Capes is no thing, it happens regularly.

However, if I find this armchair sailor, I'll let them know. I've been too busy sailing, you know. Remember what that is?

How's your sailing going?

[Factor]

Rosie Swaile rounded Cape Horn many many years ago (1972/73) in a little Oceanic 30 Cat with her husband and two small children, somehow she survived. That very boat is now in Australia and still cruising.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Paul L

A couple of years ago a cat did the NW Passage successfully

I said "I wouldn't choose". I didn't say it was unsuitable, and certainly didn't say it's impossible, to sail a cat at high latitudes.

[Bulawayo]

Wombat, you are absolutely right.
.......and yes, I am calling you out. I stated before and I'll state it again, what is your provable experience? I'll fill in the gap here for you as I asked before and you have avoided the questions - you have no relevant experience and am talking from an armchair perspective. I asked you about specific facts on your alleged experience -again this was ignored. Why? Because you cannot provide what doesn't exist, or need time to try and fabricate something. What is the name of your boat and where is it registered? What club do you belong to? Where have you been? You'll have paperwork to demonstrate this, of course. Cruising permits/receipts? Clearing in/out papers?
Whilst I dont keep my originals any more I do I keep digital copies,,,,as do many people. I also keep some original papers for their uniqueness - like my de-ratting papers from Madagascar.
Your experience is clearly demonstrated - gleaned from YouTube and reading and yet you postulate yourself as someone far more experienced.
For myself, I have been full time cruising since '95 and have a whole history that is verifiable from purchasing my boats, all cats since 1993, from manufacturers and via brokers. These boats have also been registered in my name and one occassion in my wifes. We have a trail that has been left and my routes can also be established. Transits through places like the Suez Canal etc. I have plenty of photographs as well and some video. Similarly, my membership of a very prominent yacht club is verifiable, back to 1978, as can my absence from there with my boat, since 1995. To explain that to you - its because I am away sailing - doing what you waffle about from your armchair.
You have a great habit of attributing statements to others and accusing them of falsification (aka Weavis). You state that I claim it was serene under heavy conditions. Where did I ever say that? Yet another attempt to divert attention from your fairy tale fabrications....smoke and mirrors. You have finally also looked up the Beaufort scale - you should have done that before alleging Weavis was fibbing. Anyone with any experience shall look at that video and appreciate that is not showing around 20 knots. That was a real nail in your coffin to make that claim. 20 knots is ideal sailing conditions - and the Weavis video did not show anything like ideal conditions.
Read the posting from the fellow involved with insurance to get further information about the rubbish you write on fatalaties.....but that doesnt sit comfortably with your hyperbole so simply ignore that.
If you want information, then people on this forum will freely share their experiences - but stop writing posts that pretend you are something that you are clearly not.
Frankly, you are a total Walter Mitty character that does not warrant further communication with - you write total and utter nonsense, contribute nothing meaningful, all in the typical manner of the proverbial armchair sailor.

Originally Posted by Souther Wombat

It's so hard to have a sensible discussion about multihulls which this thread shows too well. The tactic of resorting to Ad hominem attacks is the usual last resort when undefendable prejudices are challenged. It's just a debating tactic not part of any sensible discussion.

Stick to verifiable facts. There's a lot of opinions but facts speak for themselves. And the one thing that's quite clear is that there is very little experience with real offshore fully developed heavy weather at storm force. That's 50 knots and over gusting up to 40 % more. Look up your Beaufort chart for force 10 and tell me that's the conditions you found so serene.

I still see no one prepared to admit that current production models of cats have an abysmal survival rate if they are inverted in heavy weather away from reasonably prompt rescue services. That's a disturbing fact that people don't want to know, and that probably the same type of people (who are invariably very experienced cat skippers) end up dying more commonly that newcomers when it does go to custard.

The examples of modern cats inverting in heavy weather well away from rescue services all have a similar experience although comparitivly rare and I've never said otherwise than it's a low statistical likelihood. But as a risk assessment it makes the risk extreme.

Facts.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by DotDun

. . . I know when I have too much sail out....by the sound and the way the lee hull looks/responds in the bottom of a trough. A cat sailor tends to be more conservative than a monohull sailor, reef early, reef for what might happen weather-wise. And, reefing has never slowed us down, so why would I not reef early? . . . .

An important point here is that some cats might need much less power in the first place.

If the cat is large and with narrow enough hulls and is not overloaded, you need very little power to move it through the water, and it would be much less of a challenge to avoid overpowering it.

Why then do they make such cats with giant rigs? I never understood that. Hyper-performance in light winds is not what the voyaging sailor needs.

I would guess that something like the Atlantic 57 with a much smaller, low windage rig would go upwind like a demon and would be quite stable in hard weather. And would still go quite well in light weather.

[Mr B]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

An important point here is that some cats might need much less power in the first place.

If the cat is large and with narrow enough hulls and is not overloaded, you need very little power to move it through the water, and it would be much less of a challenge to avoid overpowering it.

Why then do they make such cats with giant rigs? I never understood that. Hyper-performance in light winds is not what the voyaging sailor needs.

I would guess that something like the Atlantic 57 with a much smaller, low windage rig would go upwind like a demon and would be quite stable in hard weather. And would still go quite well in light weather.

I only have a small cat, 34 feet, I am over loaded, But I can move in three knots of wind. and usually 2 to 3 knots below the prevailing wind, After that, Im slowing it down,

Fastest I have been is 14 knots, and she is steaming, But I do prefer, Between 5 to 12 knots, It just cruises along with no stress on any thing,

I havent tried above sixty degrees to windward, Im not that good a sailor,

[Bulawayo]

Dockhead, I guess it depends upon what you call giant rigs. I prefer a decent size sail plan - and one that I can reduce easily, single handed. When stuck with single figure winds I wish for an unstayed telescopic mast that could magically increase my sail area. Trying to reduce weight with a family onboard especially is very difficult. Typically we have two all aluminium dinghies aboard (Ocean Craft made in Australia) as the kids need their independence. Both of these weigh a heck more than advertised, but are as tough as they come and impervious to UV, and can be massively overloaded. I also want the best dinghy possible for the kids that shall not leave them stranded or worse and hence the aluminium rather than hypalon or similar. More weight. These in turn need their outboards - we have four; two big engines and two puttering engines. We have tried sailing dinghies etc and they didnt work for us, the same applies with canoes etc. Add in tools and spares, and everything gets used at some time, spare parts, several months of supplies, washing machine (having brought up four children on board we would struggle without that blessing) etc etc, blah blah, blah and you do end up with a lot of weight.
The alternative is a bigger boat and that I do not want nor can justify. With the two eldest children, twins, about to leave the boat for 'varsity we shall be actively looking to downsize if possible.
I cannot even lift my pile of paper charts......... and realise that many of these now can be placed ashore, but there seems very little else we can off-load to reduce weight without compromising safety or comfort. Much of our weight is safety related. We are not overloaded by any means but we do drag around a fair amount of weight and therefore need our sail area.



UOTE=Dockhead;2184410]An important point here is that some cats might need much less power in the first place.

If the cat is large and with narrow enough hulls and is not overloaded, you need very little power to move it through the water, and it would be much less of a challenge to avoid overpowering it.

Why then do they make such cats with giant rigs? I never understood that. Hyper-performance in light winds is not what the voyaging sailor needs.

I would guess that something like the Atlantic 57 with a much smaller, low windage rig would go upwind like a demon and would be quite stable in hard weather. And would still go quite well in light weather.[/QUOTE]

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Bulawayo

Dockhead, I guess it depends upon what you call giant rigs. I prefer a decent size sail plan - and one that I can reduce easily, single handed. When stuck with single figure winds I wish for an unstayed telescopic mast that could magically increase my sail area. Trying to reduce weight with a family onboard especially is very difficult. Typically we have two all aluminium dinghies aboard (Ocean Craft made in Australia) as the kids need their independence. Both of these weigh a heck more than advertised, but are as tough as they come and impervious to UV, and can be massively overloaded. I also want the best dinghy possible for the kids that shall not leave them stranded or worse and hence the aluminium rather than hypalon or similar. More weight. These in turn need their outboards - we have four; two big engines and two puttering engines. We have tried sailing dinghies etc and they didnt work for us, the same applies with canoes etc. Add in tools and spares, and everything gets used at some time, spare parts, several months of supplies, washing machine (having brought up four children on board we would struggle without that blessing) etc etc, blah blah, blah and you do end up with a lot of weight.
The alternative is a bigger boat and that I do not want nor can justify. With the two eldest children, twins, about to leave the boat for 'varsity we shall be actively looking to downsize if possible.
I cannot even lift my pile of paper charts......... and realise that many of these now can be placed ashore, but there seems very little else we can off-load to reduce weight without compromising safety or comfort. Much of our weight is safety related. We are not overloaded by any means but we do drag around a fair amount of weight and therefore need our sail area.

A good description of the many, many compromises inherent to cruising under sail, whatever type of boat you have.


I must say, however, that the compromises do get much easier, if you go up in size. Load carrying capacity goes up (for both mono and cat), speed goes up, power required to maintain a given speed goes down (relative to displacement), stability goes up, etc., etc. It's all good except for cost.

Smaller monos do much better with a couple of tons of load than smaller cats. But bigger cats start to look very good indeed.

Also on cats you can avoid having to have a generator (I have 266 kilos worth of heavy duty generator, not counting the exhaust and other ancillary systems), by using one of the main engines for this with a jumbo alternator.

[noelex 77]

Don't forget one of the greatest advantages of cats, especially big cats, is there is room for heaps of solar. There is even the option of one or more wind generators without any great shading issues.

[Bulawayo]

Thank you, Dockhead.
I could easily move over to a mono-hull and I have often considered it for a few nano seconds, mainly due to load capacity but also as I think they often look better! I know my wife would have serious objections tho'.
We also really require shoal draft for many of our preferred area's and of great signficance is space with the number of bodies on board. My wife's priority is always safety and in her eyes the cat is far safer as it sails flatter. She says she will not live like a troglodyte.
When the kids were younger there was certainly a safety issue, both on deck and below (more inside than below). The cat enabled enough space for the travel cot to be set up, in the cockpit at anchor or in the saloon whilst sailing. Having four youngsters on board was fun, really, not being sarcastic, but would have been very challenging on a mono. The cat that the children were born on was only 35ft but fat hulled - an Island Spirit 35ft, hull No.3 and the first IS launched. She had excellent space as we bought her as a HDB and did the fit out ourselves in just 9 months whilst working full time - in a liveaboard boat yard. That boat was so comfortable to live aboard even though I am 6'6". All subsequant cats have been slimmer hulled, with sailing ability being the selection criteria along with headroom. That means less weight capacity so resulted in a larger cat, now 45ft. However, the payback has been comfort and increased performance. 50 knots is not in my comfort zone but it also no longer scares the brookes off me (sorry, its a Southern African expression - it doesnt scare the knickers of me). Its sort of routine being just another one of those things....... the boat usually handles it very well. I prefer low aspect, low windage, broad beam cats for our type of sailing and accept that we do slam at times - but even so that is not common. I am also not comfortable with a raised helm. This is my opinion and not everyone shall agree. The problem to me is that many current cat designs seem to be driven by charter requirements and this is a commercial decision. In my opinion this shall eventually lead to many older cats being in even greater demand by blue water sailors. I also have a thing about constantly checking our rigging - to the point that I carry my own rig meter. I also carry spare rigging wire and terminals (if anyone is interested; Staylocks).
Importantly, my family are able to rest under such 50 knots conditions, with the kids taking it in their stride. My two eldest boys are very capable and make good decisions when managing the boat on their own. They can often be found wearing huge grins when the wind is over 50 kts. My wife shall also continue to serve up hot food and hot drinks as it still can get very cold even in the tropics. She wont cook when she considers conditions too rough. Im told that I have to go do it! The last time that happened was off the coast of South Africa, so many years ago, when the coast guard reported 15 meter waves and winds in excess of 80 knots. That was scary. Rounding South Africa can be challenging. On that occassion, a Taiwanese trawler went down with all hands and an Australian steel monohull also sank with the crew being rescued by the South Africans, thankfully. They reported hitting something. A container ship also lost a heap of containers overboard. Our cat came through unscathed but for a bent rudder stock when we hit something with an enormous shudder, which was semi-submerged. We still think it was a container. Those conditions were SW'rly so anyone who thinks an east-west rounding of South Africa is a piece of cake needs to be sure of their weather (good forecasting is readily available). We were headed from CapeTown to Mozambique at the time. Again, for anyone doing this pasage it means hugging the coast to avoid the current - not such fun in bad weather to be so close to shore.
I also realised many years ago that if were are expecting poor weather then I can also anticipate a roast dinner as my wife simply defrosts the chicken/pork/lamb/beef/duck and places it into the oven - so a reason to 'look forward' to some bad weather. The roast dinners are special occassions only whilst at sea!
Life on a cat can be so good..........even during 50 knots.


A good description of the many, many compromises inherent to cruising under sail, whatever type of boat you have.[/QUOTE]

[weavis]

I am gratified to see seasoned, experienced and informed sailors of both craft persuasions, exchanging experiences and concepts in such a pleasant way. A massive lack of judgement for choices made and a great deal of respect....

[Bulawayo]

We have over 1000 watts of solar and two D400's. We have never had a diesel gen set nor air conditioning. We dont want for power, even with six people and an extra 95 litres of freezer. Our dive compressor is petrol powered, the water maker is 12v. We do carry a Honda portable geerator that see use for the pressure washer and for powering some tools from time to time. Our emergency pump is also 230v. Washing machine is powered via invertor.

Originally Posted by noelex 77

Don't forget one of the greatest advantages of cats, especially big cats, is there is room for heaps of solar. There is even the option of one or more wind generators without any great shading issues.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

Don't forget one of the greatest advantages of cats, especially big cats, is there is room for heaps of solar. There is even the option of one or more wind generators without any great shading issues.

Yes, I think we forgot to mention that. One more reason not to have a generator, and to keep the load down, on a cat.

Another point we didn't mention is dinghy storage. But that of course is a double edged sword, tempting one to have a large wheel steered dinghy which will have negative impacts on loading and windage.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Bulawayo

Dockhead, I guess it depends upon what you call giant rigs. I prefer a decent size sail plan - and one that I can reduce easily, single handed. When stuck with single figure winds I wish for an unstayed telescopic mast that could magically increase my sail area. . . .

I think every sailor has wished for a "magic telescopic mast" from time to time

But I think with a cat, you can just motor when the wind is too light. Also, you could have light wind sails.

Where I sail, a much bigger problem is having too much windage and drag to get upwind in strong conditions. You just can't make miles upwind if your rig is too big for the conditions and you have to reef the headsail. And you can't motor in those conditions, either. So this is a much bigger problem than what to do in light wind.

I would think you would have an opportunity with a larger cat which can be moved with very little power, to size the rig to work well up to 30 knots of true wind.

Last year I had a 95% blade jib made for my boat in carbon laminate. It reduces the sail area of my boat considerably. It gives less power downwind than the normal 120% yankee, but it produces no less power than the yankee any time the wind is ahead of the beam, even in very light winds. But with far less heeling and far less drag. It's a brilliant sail, and I now use it more than the yankee. I only want the yankee on a long trip which is mostly downwind, but in a pinch I just put on the motor.

A very easily driven catamaran (with daggerboards) could use such a rig even much more profitably, I think. My boat is fairly light (less than 200 D/L) compared to other cruising monos of her size, but is still about 23 to 25 tonnes of mass (when fully loaded with long distance cruising carp including large spares inventory, workshop including drill press, couple tonnes of fuel and water, etc., etc.) to move through the water.

I realize my way of using the boat is unusual and so not really catered to by the market. I have to make lots of miles upwind, sometimes in strong weather, so upwind performance is extremely important to me. I don't have any moral hangup about using the motor when it's profitable to do so, so I don't consider motoring downwind in light weather to be any kind of mortal sin.

[beiland]

Originally Posted by Bulawayo

.....Dockhead, I guess it depends upon what you call giant rigs. I prefer a decent size sail plan - and one that I can reduce easily, single handed. When stuck with single figure winds I wish for an unstayed telescopic mast that could magically increase my sail area.

....Much of our weight is safety related. We are not overloaded by any means but we do drag around a fair amount of weight and therefore need our sail area.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

An important point here is that some cats might need much less power in the first place.

If the cat is large and with narrow enough hulls and is not overloaded, you need very little power to move it through the water, and it would be much less of a challenge to avoid overpowering it.

Why then do they make such cats with giant rigs? I never understood that. Hyper-performance in light winds is not what the voyaging sailor needs.

I would guess that something like the Atlantic 57 with a much smaller, low windage rig would go upwind like a demon and would be quite stable in hard weather. And would still go quite well in light weather.

How about this cruising rig?....low aspect, but decent size sail area
Mainless Rig, all roller furling, reefing
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post1848613

Shorter Rigs, Lower Aspect Ratios

Originally Posted by beiland

But wait a minute, isn't my rig already 'reefed down'?? My mast aft rig on the 65 foot cat is approx 15 feet shorter than the comparible fractional sloop rig of the same sail area on this other 65' foot cat. And the rig on that 65' trimaran is approx 15 feet shorter as well...same sail areas. I would call this quite a reef.

Too often in the past the cruising sailor has been asked to bow before this altar of 'hi-aspect-ratio-is-the-best' theme that permeates the racing crowds concerned with upwind performance...as though this is some sort of ultimate configuration. I think the cruising sailor will be much happier with the lower aspect ratios that Marchaji found VERY effective for all other points of sailing. My rig seeks to use those lower aspect ratios.

The points I was trying to make for my aft-mast rig with its big genoa is that I was trying to meet a big variety of conditions with a limited sail inventory (my 3 sails are the only ones I have onboard, and are set up to be reduced in size by roller furling/reefing, not hoisted or replaced by alternatives).

As such I wanted a good size genoa sail for those often encounter 5-15 knot winds that we would really like to sail in rather than turning on the engine(s). This size sail, in those conditions, should be relatively easy to handle, ...(and when out cruising I would NOT be looking at getting into tacking duals). I was seeking to get the best from this genoa sail by giving it the best help from the 'cutter jib' (mainstaysail as I refer to it), and providing for its best dumping traits as described by Tom Speer.

I'm also quite convinced that modern sail materials such as the tape-drives or these Titanium sails would allow for a very light weight sail that would maintain their shape even in higher wind conditions. These materials should also allow for sailing under a partially furled sail. As I have said before I believe a hefty size ROUND furling 'tube' (headstay) should utilized to negate some difficulties of stalling the sail due to a 'too-sharp' leading edge to the headsails. Combine this type of headstay foil with a modern 'shaped foam insert' in the leading edge, and this sail should set pretty well in the roller-reefed condition. It would be nice to be able to utilize this reef-able genoa up to the 25+ knot range.

For storm conditions that we see coming we slip another sail over that furling genoa:
Storm Sail Configurations

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PS: Lagoon appears ready to redefine the mainsail

Interesting new twist, Lagoon 52 design moves mast aft to carry larger headsails and smaller mainsail.

Boat Review: Lagoon 52 - Sail Magazine

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http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...t-13937-3.html